Richard Cranium wrote:yorkshire stag wrote:our defence isn’t good enough quality wise, this will come back to bite us
Well that's that then. Season ticket for sale £200. Paid £325
Richard Cranium wrote:yorkshire stag wrote:our defence isn’t good enough quality wise, this will come back to bite us
Well that's that then. Season ticket for sale £200. Paid £325
Spiritater wrote:Richard Cranium wrote:yorkshire stag wrote:our defence isn’t good enough quality wise, this will come back to bite us
Well that's that then. Season ticket for sale £200. Paid £325
I'll tek it off your hands for a couple of pints in t'Patey later on. But with our defence lacking a proper CB we'll lose every game this season so 200 notes is far too much.
broomo wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Firstly I don’t think Harbottle is here as backup.
I wouldn’t count Hewitt as he would be my first choice right back/wing back. I think Nigel is also not sure about Gordon certainly at right back. That really only leaves you one absentee if you are playing with 3 centre backs which is the position most likely to pick up suspensions. If Macca is injured you could well need Hewitt on that side of the pitch.
A good solid centre half would plug any gaps and should add much needed pace if Harbottle isn’t on the pitch. Hawkins would be my back up and could also cover if Oates is injured. So get the right centre half and a number of potential problems have a solution.
We already have the solutions to a number of potential problems.
Look, I was as angry and disappointed as anyone else at Hawkins after the PO final but to suggest he's anything other than a key player for us is ludicrous, we seem to be forgetting he was an integral part of the team that went on to show not only promotion but title winning form from Tranmere onwards.
For all the talk of him struggling with pace, how often did we get beaten by a team who tore us apart through the middle? Add to that he weighed in with the odd goal here and there and I just don't get the disrespect he's been shown.
I'd have him in my team alongside O'Toole whichever formation we played.
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:broomo wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Firstly I don’t think Harbottle is here as backup.
I wouldn’t count Hewitt as he would be my first choice right back/wing back. I think Nigel is also not sure about Gordon certainly at right back. That really only leaves you one absentee if you are playing with 3 centre backs which is the position most likely to pick up suspensions. If Macca is injured you could well need Hewitt on that side of the pitch.
A good solid centre half would plug any gaps and should add much needed pace if Harbottle isn’t on the pitch. Hawkins would be my back up and could also cover if Oates is injured. So get the right centre half and a number of potential problems have a solution.
We already have the solutions to a number of potential problems.
Look, I was as angry and disappointed as anyone else at Hawkins after the PO final but to suggest he's anything other than a key player for us is ludicrous, we seem to be forgetting he was an integral part of the team that went on to show not only promotion but title winning form from Tranmere onwards.
For all the talk of him struggling with pace, how often did we get beaten by a team who tore us apart through the middle? Add to that he weighed in with the odd goal here and there and I just don't get the disrespect he's been shown.
I'd have him in my team alongside O'Toole whichever formation we played.
Broomo, I don’t know how many times I have to say this but my dislike for Hawkins at centre back has absolutely nothing to do with the display at Wembley. I have been critical of the player months before then but also acknowledge if he has a good game. I openly concede that he is our best defender when balls are launched into the box and someone has to get a head on it. Unfortunately it’s the rest of his game that make him unsuitable as a TOP centre half. He is not just slow but is yards behind players who run past him and this often results in free kicks in dangerous areas if he’s even close enough to foul the player in the first place. He loses concentration and is often too far from his man should a ball come through.
Todays game is being played increasingly on the floor and I’m sure we will see far fewer hoof teams at our level this season. That is why we need a king pin centre half who is not only reasonable but excels in those situations.
I don’t think I am being disrespectful to a player merely by discussing his plus and minus points on a fan’s forum as we do it with every player we watch including opponents. I haven’t called Hawkins names nor would I do so.
I concede that Nigel has faith in Hawkins and has changed his preferred formation to allow for the shortfalls I highlighted and if it works I will be the first to congratulate them. I would rather sign a central defender to fit the preferred formation instead of disrupting what was a proven winning formula.
As I said earlier 45 more games will give us the answer.
yorkshire stag wrote:this would have been my first summer but
Matthew Horsfall exactly what we needed however went to Stockport
Rob wrote:bear 73 wrote:wink68 wrote:A quality centre half was the main reason we didn't go up last season and we still need one. There a difference between having players that can play there and a rock at the back that wins you promotion.
why have we not thought of this before seems so easy ,
Yes indeed
I know you won't accept a single word of criticism of Clough, but it really is as clear as it can be that we need a top quality CB. If he doesn't sign one and we struggle he will rightly be criticised. I'm amazed Martin thinks we don't need one. In fact, whilst we can list 5 players who "can" play at CB, actually only one of them is one!
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:broomo wrote:I don't have the historical knowledge of Mansfield so can only compare it to a different club.
Nigel was sacked at Derby over a long running difference of opinion over not signing another centre half.
He thought Buxton was good enough. The fans and the CEO didn't.
NC went on record as saying the squad was good enough and for the first time since he took over they would challenge for the play offs.
In fact before sacking him the CEO had agreed to sign Zak Whitbread on loan with a guaranteed "buy" in place once the loan was completed. Paying huge wages for a lad coming back from a long term injury.
Buxton went on to be an ever present and a club legend, Whitbread was injured for pretty much 2 years.
Why am I posting that?
Last season Nigel said he'd got a squad capable of challenging for promotion.
This season he has said he thinks we're good enough to go one better.
He's not a bad judge of the make up of his squad, if a quality centre half or striker becomes available and fits within the budget, I suspect he'd sign them but for now, he's happy to go with what we've got.
If Nigel thinks we've got enough of a squad to challenge, I would trust that he's right.
Nice story Broomo but Buxton was a centre half with plenty of experience and our one time captain. He was also relatively young and able to learn. He had also played for Clough as a centre half at Burton and Nigel had seen him develop and recognised his potential.
Contrast that with our current situation with a 30 year old centre forward with little defensive experience playing at the heart of our defence and expected to be the king pin of a team looking for automatic promotion.
The two situations simply don’t compare especially when you look at what defensive cover we have available.
The only thing that will settle this debate is another 45 league two games and then we will know the answer. Unless of course we sign a recognised centre half before then.
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:broomo wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Firstly I don’t think Harbottle is here as backup.
I wouldn’t count Hewitt as he would be my first choice right back/wing back. I think Nigel is also not sure about Gordon certainly at right back. That really only leaves you one absentee if you are playing with 3 centre backs which is the position most likely to pick up suspensions. If Macca is injured you could well need Hewitt on that side of the pitch.
A good solid centre half would plug any gaps and should add much needed pace if Harbottle isn’t on the pitch. Hawkins would be my back up and could also cover if Oates is injured. So get the right centre half and a number of potential problems have a solution.
We already have the solutions to a number of potential problems.
Look, I was as angry and disappointed as anyone else at Hawkins after the PO final but to suggest he's anything other than a key player for us is ludicrous, we seem to be forgetting he was an integral part of the team that went on to show not only promotion but title winning form from Tranmere onwards.
For all the talk of him struggling with pace, how often did we get beaten by a team who tore us apart through the middle? Add to that he weighed in with the odd goal here and there and I just don't get the disrespect he's been shown.
I'd have him in my team alongside O'Toole whichever formation we played.
Broomo, I don’t know how many times I have to say this but my dislike for Hawkins at centre back has absolutely nothing to do with the display at Wembley. I have been critical of the player months before then but also acknowledge if he has a good game. I openly concede that he is our best defender when balls are launched into the box and someone has to get a head on it. Unfortunately it’s the rest of his game that make him unsuitable as a TOP centre half. He is not just slow but is yards behind players who run past him and this often results in free kicks in dangerous areas if he’s even close enough to foul the player in the first place. He loses concentration and is often too far from his man should a ball come through.
Todays game is being played increasingly on the floor and I’m sure we will see far fewer hoof teams at our level this season. That is why we need a king pin centre half who is not only reasonable but excels in those situations.
I don’t think I am being disrespectful to a player merely by discussing his plus and minus points on a fan’s forum as we do it with every player we watch including opponents. I haven’t called Hawkins names nor would I do so.
I concede that Nigel has faith in Hawkins and has changed his preferred formation to allow for the shortfalls I highlighted and if it works I will be the first to congratulate them. I would rather sign a central defender to fit the preferred formation instead of disrupting what was a proven winning formula.
As I said earlier 45 more games will give us the answer.
bear 73 wrote:yorkshire stag wrote:this would have been my first summer but
Matthew Horsfall exactly what we needed however went to Stockport
Is that the same Stockport that paid £250-000 for Paddy Madden while still a non -league club
Martin Shaw wrote:Billy the fish wrote:Martin Shaw wrote:I don't think Clough is looking for another centre back. Of course if a quality player becomes available, then Clough has said that he always looks to improve the squad if he can, so that might change.
We have Perch, Hewitt, Hawkins, O'Toole, Harbottle competing for three places, if we continue with 3-5-2 formation.
Do you personally think we have enough quality up top Martin or think we are a goal scorer short ??
I'd like to see another striker. But only if he is a very good player, not one just for the sake of signing a striker.
Clough said this week:
"Ideally we'd like another forward player.
"The owners put in a couple of substantial bids for strikers. We weren't successful."
Showaddywaddy wrote:We have plenty of options at centre back, if we were to sign one more it would have to be an improvement on what we already have, but we know this already.
To bring in someone who walks straight into the side as our best centre half will no doubt cost plenty of dosh. I can’t name many Centre halves that would be a realistic target to improve us that dramatically. Horsfall was on my wish list but I expected him to move higher up the divisions, he was a great signing by Stockport.
It’s the same situation up front, we want either a striker or number 10 that walks straight into the side where the rest of the f the division sit up and say ‘Mansfield are really going for it again’.
We’ve obviously tried to chuck a bit of money at this with bids for Nichols, Broom and maybe others. I would like to see Oates plus one new quality addition as our regular strike pairing, but again who else can we get? Telford would’ve been good, another player I expected to go higher but opted for Crawley, though it could turn out he’s a one season wonder. I’d absolutely love Tyler back, he’d score a shed load but he came on as substitute for Coventry last Sunday. McKirdy’s name has mentioned but I can’t see is making an offer that Swindon would accept. He’s an annoying little player but he had a fabulous season last year and was excellent against us at the Mill.
I think we are so desperate for signings because that is football these days, all rumours, speculation and wholesale changes and Mansfield have been no exception.
I’m happy to trust the boss, we couldn’t be in better hands, I think we’ve got our best manager since Ian Greaves.
Here’s hoping for 3 points today, otherwise that’s no win in 3 competitive matches and Clough out!!
Up the Stags.
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:My idea of a top centre half is one who is at least competent in all areas of his game not excellent in one area but mediocre (at best) in the other areas. He would be one who is capable of having a reasonable chance of success against all types of opponents whether they play it high or along the floor and isn’t left yards behind his target in a straight foot race.
I’m not asking for perfection just competence for a side aiming at automatic promotion. Some on here think JJ isn’t the best centre half but I think him more than competent and if we could replace Hawkins with JJ’s twin, I would be more than satisfied.
And to answer your question, yes I think we succeeded last year despite Hawkins. He had some very good games (usually against hoof teams) but he also had some awful games even if we got away with a lot of his mistakes. I want consistency which is necessary in such a vital role if you are serious about the automatics.
Bradders wrote:Martin Shaw wrote:Billy the fish wrote:Martin Shaw wrote:I don't think Clough is looking for another centre back. Of course if a quality player becomes available, then Clough has said that he always looks to improve the squad if he can, so that might change.
We have Perch, Hewitt, Hawkins, O'Toole, Harbottle competing for three places, if we continue with 3-5-2 formation.
Do you personally think we have enough quality up top Martin or think we are a goal scorer short ??
I'd like to see another striker. But only if he is a very good player, not one just for the sake of signing a striker.
Clough said this week:
"Ideally we'd like another forward player.
"The owners put in a couple of substantial bids for strikers. We weren't successful."
There was a lot hand-wringing about tactics, performances and formations at Salford. But we outplayed the opposition and created a hatful of chances, whereas they were limited to a couple of opportunities. The main problem was that we weren't clinical with finishing. I think that with a better goalscorer last season we'd already be in League One, and suspect that if the poor finishing isn't addressed we'll fall short again.
bobbystagsfan wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:My idea of a top centre half is one who is at least competent in all areas of his game not excellent in one area but mediocre (at best) in the other areas. He would be one who is capable of having a reasonable chance of success against all types of opponents whether they play it high or along the floor and isn’t left yards behind his target in a straight foot race.
I’m not asking for perfection just competence for a side aiming at automatic promotion. Some on here think JJ isn’t the best centre half but I think him more than competent and if we could replace Hawkins with JJ’s twin, I would be more than satisfied.
And to answer your question, yes I think we succeeded last year despite Hawkins. He had some very good games (usually against hoof teams) but he also had some awful games even if we got away with a lot of his mistakes. I want consistency which is necessary in such a vital role if you are serious about the automatics.
Something that is lacking quite regularly at this level, and not just talking about our team or our players.
gazza1988 wrote:Bradders wrote:Martin Shaw wrote:Billy the fish wrote:Martin Shaw wrote:I don't think Clough is looking for another centre back. Of course if a quality player becomes available, then Clough has said that he always looks to improve the squad if he can, so that might change.
We have Perch, Hewitt, Hawkins, O'Toole, Harbottle competing for three places, if we continue with 3-5-2 formation.
Do you personally think we have enough quality up top Martin or think we are a goal scorer short ??
I'd like to see another striker. But only if he is a very good player, not one just for the sake of signing a striker.
Clough said this week:
"Ideally we'd like another forward player.
"The owners put in a couple of substantial bids for strikers. We weren't successful."
There was a lot hand-wringing about tactics, performances and formations at Salford. But we outplayed the opposition and created a hatful of chances, whereas they were limited to a couple of opportunities. The main problem was that we weren't clinical with finishing. I think that with a better goalscorer last season we'd already be in League One, and suspect that if the poor finishing isn't addressed we'll fall short again.
Swindon Town scored 10 more goals than we did, and they were the highest scoring team in the league. They finished 6th with the same Win, draw and Loss record as us and finished above us on goal difference.
Swindon also conceded 2 more goals than we did. In the top 10, Swindon conceded the most goals with 54, Sutton 2nd with 53 and us 3rd with 52,
Scoring goals is not our main issue (although can always be improved). Preventing goals is our main issue. It isn't a new thing, it was said last season too. It's easy to say if we had an extra goal in this game we'd have more points. Equally valid though is if we hadn't conceded in some games we would have more points. if 2 score draws become a 1 goal win that's 4 more points and if 1 loss by 1 goal becomes a draw thats another point. So 3 games where we conceded 1 less goal in each gives us 5 points. 82 points in total and we take 3rd.
Obviously you could take the same games and say 1 more goal reaps the same rewards, this is true, however Swindon scored the most goals in the league and conceded 2 more than us and only managed 6th on goal difference.
Exeter city scored a similar amount of goals to us (2 less. They scored 65 to our 67) but crucially conceded 11 goals less than we did.
Bradders wrote:gazza1988 wrote:Swindon Town scored 10 more goals than we did, and they were the highest scoring team in the league. They finished 6th with the same Win, draw and Loss record as us and finished above us on goal difference.
Swindon also conceded 2 more goals than we did. In the top 10, Swindon conceded the most goals with 54, Sutton 2nd with 53 and us 3rd with 52,
Scoring goals is not our main issue (although can always be improved). Preventing goals is our main issue. It isn't a new thing, it was said last season too. It's easy to say if we had an extra goal in this game we'd have more points. Equally valid though is if we hadn't conceded in some games we would have more points. if 2 score draws become a 1 goal win that's 4 more points and if 1 loss by 1 goal becomes a draw thats another point. So 3 games where we conceded 1 less goal in each gives us 5 points. 82 points in total and we take 3rd.
Obviously you could take the same games and say 1 more goal reaps the same rewards, this is true, however Swindon scored the most goals in the league and conceded 2 more than us and only managed 6th on goal difference.
Exeter city scored a similar amount of goals to us (2 less. They scored 65 to our 67) but crucially conceded 11 goals less than we did.
Yes, I can't argue with the stats of course, and I'd noticed the same. But ultimately we've seen good chances go begging on too many occasions. Salford was a good example. Other teams seem to create little but make the most of every chance, but we rarely look dangerous in attack because the final shot is rushed. From the stats we may as well play 4-5-1 and accept that we don't need to score much.
Dan wrote:1-0 win clean sheet winning goal from a centre back, thread closed
Strange that he brought Hewitt on and put him centre half, he could've tried that last week even for 45 minutes.
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