David Flitcroft v Steve Evans (Playing Budgets)

[Tippy Tappy Football]

I've updated my information on total wages from the club based on information in the accounts. It's difficult because there were no full accounts for 2018 and no AGM since November 2018.

The total spending on wages at the club did drastically increase to around £3.8 million under Steve Evans and increased even further to around £5 million under David Flitcroft. It does add to the argument put forward by some critics of David Flitcroft that he has only achieved success in League 2 by having a huge playing budget. Bury lost £2,978,089 in 2014-2015 when they were promoted from League 2 in 2014-2015 under David Flitcroft.

That should keep you all arguing happily for hours. Merry Christmas


Paul Cox and Adam Murray did a very good job with the very small playing budgets that they had.

Total Wages for Club (including non playing staff)
2011-2012: £1,344,256 (Paul Cox finished 3rd in National League)
2012-2013: £2,328,070 (Paul Cox won National League)
2013-2014: £2,071,080 (Paul Cox finished 11th in League 2)
2014-2015: £1,486,334 (Paul Cox and Adam Murray finished 21st in League 2)
2015-2016: £1,464,626 (Adam Murray finished 12th in League 2)
2016-2017: £1,884,466 (Adam Murray/Steve Evans finished 12th in League 2)
2017-2018: £3,762,389 (Estimated)* (Steve Evans/David Flitcroft finished 8th in League 2)
2018-2019: £5,015,644 (Estimated)** (David Flitcroft finished 4th in League 2)
2019-2020: £5,706,953 (Estimated)*** (John Dempster/Graham Coughlan finished 21st in League 2)

* = £1,600,221 for 6 months from 1st July to 31st December 2017 + £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018).
** = £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018) + £2,853,476 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2019)
*** = Total wages for year ended 31st December 2019

Note: These wages will include the employer’s national insurance contributions of around 13.8%

[broomo]

Again, having had no idea of the wage structure here, that fills me with confidence.

That budget is considerably higher than NC had at Burton in League One and nit a million miles away from the Championship budget which i believe was 5.6m

With that kind of backing he WILL build a squad to get us out of this division.

Incredible backing from the Chairman, fair play to him on that.

[chip63]

Could someone tell me how this squad is worth nearly 6 million ?
It just does not add up.

[groundhoppingstag]

Could someone tell me how this squad is worth nearly 6 million ?
It just does not add up.

Because someone is prepared to pay it.

[Chris M]

Those figures indicate that Muzza made some incredible signings, Mal Benning, Krystian Pearce, Danny Rose, CJ Hamilton, Matt Green etc, with a tiny budget compared with what followed. Just makes me wonder what he could have achieved if he had had greater funds at his disposal. I am sure that John Radford will feel he has not had value for money in recent years. We are very lucky to have John. Let us hope he keeps the faith.

[Conker]

Flitcroft budget was ridiculous!

[Rob]

These are total wages for everyone at the club, not just player wages, the player wage was nowhere near £5m, I know you make that point Darren, but it is worth reiterating, especially when used to compare with other clubs. DF did have a high budget, he inherited one and was allowed to add to it as he could not offload Evans' flops. Had he not been sacked I suspect the wage budget would have reduced as the expensive players moved on. Anyway, we have done this to death and now have a manager we can unite behind and someone far less likely to sign the overpaid, undeperforming players Evans did.

[kevin kents tasce]

I wonder if some of those inflated wages under Evans and Flitcroft relate to the RH academy?

I’m sure Mr Hymas would have used his contacts to do the work and it may have been financially prudent to pay them directly as club employees?There is also likely to have been an increase in staff as a result of it opening.

Some might also relate to consultants costs when planning the hotel or fixing the scoreboard every week.

Pure speculation though and could be completely wrong. Just offering other reasons as to why it might have been so high.

[Rob]

As I posted on the other thtead, the rise in non-playing staff from 11 to 63 must have had a significant impact and could be down to the RH as you say KKT.

[Tippy Tappy Football]

The increase in non-playing staff from 11 to 63 was only in 2019 and I imagine most of these are hourly paid coaches who work at the Academy or other people who work up at Pleasley who are funded through the Cat 3/EFL funding or even previously by Steve himself.

[MutinyOnTheCounty]

Flitcroft budget was ridiculous!

True mate, although we also had several crocked high earners on the books.

They were unable/unwilling to play, but accounting for removing a sizeable chunk of purchasing power

[NorthLondonStag]

As I posted on the other thtead, the rise in non-playing staff from 11 to 63 must have had a significant impact and could be down to the RH as you say KKT.

It could also be (for example) that hospitality staff or something like that are brought onto the books when they had previously been employed by another company.

[NorthLondonStag]

The maximum for the player wages appears to be around £4m because the gross wages are around £5m and then £1m is recharged to other group companies and I can't believe that includes players as they play for the club. So that leaves £4m for all playing and remaining non-playing staff.

I think its very hard to do like for like with any certainty, given the different periods for the accounts and also that the wages and salaries are not broken out into sufficient detail.

What we do know however is that the wages bill for playing staff is going to drop dramatically over the next 18 months, to meet the cap.

Current player wages (for the sake of argument) is £3.3m, give or take.

After application of wages cap - turnover stays level and wages drop to (say) £1.3m.

The club will be £2m better off which eliminates much of the difference between revenue and outgoings.

You/I may not like the wage cap for lots of reasons but on the numbers for turnover and current costs (principally wages) you can see why League Two Chairs thought it made sense.

[Dan]

Flitcroft budget was ridiculous!

Which is why the majority of us say he failed. He had THE highest ever budget given to any Stags manager. He also paid out the most weekly wages on a player (Tyler Walker’s £5,000 a week) and yet we still ended up in League Two because he bottled it. Twice.

[gazza1988]

Flitcroft budget was ridiculous!

Which is why the majority of us say he failed. He had THE highest ever budget given to any Stags manager. He also paid out the most weekly wages on a player (Tyler Walker’s £5,000 a week) and yet we still ended up in League Two because he bottled it. Twice.

And I'm sure the return from Tyler walker was worth it.

We're going over old ground here but Flitcroft transfer listed Evans signings and couldn't shift them. He was forced to sell a striker (Angol) he had players out long term injured that he didn't want.

How come we didn't go up as champions last season? Demps/Coughlan and the newest highest budget ever and nearly relegated us. If how much you spend matters so much it should have been a shoo-in. That's failure mate not missing out by 1 goal.

Those budgets are estimated, based on dividing the total by 2 and assigning each half to a manager. Evans managed to increased the budget from Murray by over £2m (an extra £400k the season he joined and around £1.9m the following season (DF didn't sign any players that season) then the budget went up by another £1.25m
In DF season.

[Dan]

Flitcroft budget was ridiculous!

Which is why the majority of us say he failed. He had THE highest ever budget given to any Stags manager. He also paid out the most weekly wages on a player (Tyler Walker’s £5,000 a week) and yet we still ended up in League Two because he bottled it. Twice.

And I'm sure the return from Tyler walker was worth it.

We're going over old ground here but Flitcroft transfer listed Evans signings and couldn't shift them. He was forced to sell a striker (Angol) he had players out long term injured that he didn't want.

How come we didn't go up as champions last season? Demps/Coughlan and the newest highest budget ever and nearly relegated us. If how much you spend matters so much it should have been a shoo-in. That's failure mate not missing out by 1 goal.

Those budgets are estimated, based on dividing the total by 2 and assigning each half to a manager. Evans managed to increased the budget from Murray by over £2m (an extra £400k the season he joined and around £1.9m the following season (DF didn't sign any players that season) then the budget went up by another £1.25m
In DF season.

How on earth do you come to the conclusion that Dempster and Coughlan had the “newest highest budget ever”?! Please tell me which player they signed on £5,000 a week. And don’t forget there are stricter rules these days too.

[gazza1988]

Last time I checked £5.7m (the estimated spending for JD and GC in 19/20) was a higher number than £5m (the estimated spending of DF in 18/19)


Or are we ignoring that to suit the narrative?

[bobbystagsfan]

Do we know what other teams were spending in these seasons? That would be an interesting comparison

[Tippy Tappy Football]

Here are Scunthorpe United's total wages for a similar period. They were League 2 Runners Up and finished 3rd and 5th in League 1 before being relegated in 2018-2019. They have now significantly cut their playing budget.

Peter Swann, the Scunthorpe Chairman, said on BBC Radio Humberside in January 2020 that Scunthorpe United had a playing budget in excess of £3 million and they were trying to reduce it over the next few seasons to get it to a third of the current budget. They had around 35 players in their squad. Swann said that he had a real go at trying to get Scunthorpe into The Championship but they just fell short and he was now trying to make the club sustainable. He has kept saying this season that they need to cut their budget by two thirds. He also said that Fleetwood Town had a playing budget of £5.5 million last season.

Scunthorpe United Accounts
Total Wages & Salaries
2013-2014 £2,725,234 (League 2 Runners Up - Promoted)
2014-2015 £4,364,516 (including £56,670 paid to directors) (16th League 1)
2015-2016 £5,391,048 (including £190,223 paid to directors) (7th League 1)
2016-2017 £6,013,697 (including £191,347 paid to directors) (3rd in League 1)
2017-2018 £6,375,967 (including £191,201 paid to directors) (5th in League 1)
2018-2019 £5,802,855 (including £183,008 paid to directors) (23rd in League 1 - Relegated)

[Sedgwick]

Flitcroft budget was ridiculous!

Which is why the majority of us say he failed. He had THE highest ever budget given to any Stags manager. He also paid out the most weekly wages on a player (Tyler Walker’s £5,000 a week) and yet we still ended up in League Two because he bottled it. Twice.

Having the highest budget doesn't mean you automatically have to finish 1st.... He had a high budget but some of that was sat wasted in the stands and on other key players he didn't really want but had to use. The players bottled it more than anyone if you're going to point the finger.

Glad the Evans/ Flitcorft era is over tbh and can't see people arguing over either of them for much longer once we pick up under Clough. I cant see Nigel spending insane amounts for a league two club. He will look after JR's money im sure.

[Rob]

Flitcroft budget was ridiculous!

Which is why the majority of us say he failed. He had THE highest ever budget given to any Stags manager. He also paid out the most weekly wages on a player (Tyler Walker’s £5,000 a week) and yet we still ended up in League Two because he bottled it. Twice.

Dan, we finished 4th, our highest league position in what will be 17 years, no matter what his wage budget was, how is that a failure? It really, really isn't and I'd give quite a lot to have that season we had under him right now.

[daddycool]

You should ask the chairman if it’s failure because flitcroft was sacked instantly the season finished ,so yes it was a failure .

[gazza1988]

You should ask the chairman if it’s failure because flitcroft was sacked instantly the season finished ,so yes it was a failure .

Ask the CEO at the time as well and you'd get a different opinion.

Anyway enough of that it's Christmas

Merry Christmas all!

[I am Spartacus]

I think that you will find that many posters on here have expensive ex’s that never delivered the promised goods.

Merry Christmas all and look to the future.

[Curry 9 Brace 7]

Dan, you didn't like Flitcroft for one reason or another, but I for one enjoyed his team's performances and it was nice not to be looking at the bottom 2 team's results every Saturday since sacking him.