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iFollow, including new App

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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:35 pm

Martin Shaw wrote:Sandy, I read that as an example (use of the word "like"), and it may be the word "live" that is the key difference to the rest of the article. However it is not clear in this article.


Martin, I don’t interpret the final paragraph that way. I think the writer is talking about people who unlawfully access subscriber services by using someone else’s log in details. This would include both tv and streaming services like Netflicks etc where only one person is allowed to access the service with that login. So if you used someone else’s login you would be deceiving the broadcaster into streaming the service to you without further payment. This would cover the scenario when season ticket holders give their login to their mates to use. Both parties would probably be guilty of a criminal offence as the mate is effectively saying, ‘I am the season ticket holder and have a legal right to access this service’. Clearly they are not and are obtaining the service by deception and the season ticket holder is aiding and abetting them to do it.

In the case of streaming a pirate service, the user is not transmitting any information to the content owner so can’t be deceiving them. The person hosting the stream is clearly committing the offence.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Martin Shaw » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:43 pm

ok Sandy, I agree it's not clear in that particular article and it is down to interpretation.

But this is unequivocal, from Crimestoppers

https://crimestoppers-uk.org/keeping-sa ... -the-risks

In short, if you are streaming and watching - for free - films, TV shows or sport that should be paid for (or that are not legally available in the UK), then you are streaming illegally.

It is not a grey area: those who load up, advertise, sell or distribute dodgy streaming boxes and sticks are committing a crime, as is anyone who uses one of these dodgy devices to stream illegal content.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:15 am

Martin Shaw wrote:ok Sandy, I agree it's not clear in that particular article and it is down to interpretation.

But this is unequivocal, from Crimestoppers

https://crimestoppers-uk.org/keeping-sa ... -the-risks

In short, if you are streaming and watching - for free - films, TV shows or sport that should be paid for (or that are not legally available in the UK), then you are streaming illegally.

It is not a grey area: those who load up, advertise, sell or distribute dodgy streaming boxes and sticks are committing a crime, as is anyone who uses one of these dodgy devices to stream illegal content.


Yes I’ve also read that together with a number of other articles on the subject. For the offence to be committed by an end user, that user has to be using a device which has been unlawfully modified. Because of advances in technology, there is now very little cause to modify devices to access this content and the offence goes back to the days when people had their PlayStation etc ‘chipped’. The sites themselves are undoubtedly unlawful and the people that operate them are clearly committing a crime. It is an offence to download content ie make a copy but not to watch streamed content, so if you are not saving the download to a device like a memory stick you are not committing a criminal offence.

Please don’t think that I am promoting this practice but merely debating whether it is a crime to watch it. Official comments by the authorities clearly say that streaming is a criminal offence but it is very often ambiguous as to whether they are talking about broadcasting the stream or being the end watcher and I think this is a deliberate ploy to discourage the practice. When pressed most debaters agree that it is not a criminal offence to merely watch in the uk and I have never seen a link to any legislation which makes it an offence. If anyone knows of any legislation then I would be interested to read any link which is posted. It is clearly a breach of copyright which is only enforceable by the copyright licence holder. There has never been any copyright infringement legal action in the UK against anyone merely watching the content only against posters and stream owners.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Martin Shaw » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:31 am

I think the point is that the IPTV devices are modified by the fraudsters to enable them to show illegal content (as opposed to legal content).

I already posted this article below, but in my opinion, this article is competely clear as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foo ... 72811.html

Premier League illegal streaming could see criminal action taken, police warn

Thursday 18 June 2020

Return of football has triggered a huge demand to watch games behind paywalls, but the City of London Police has issued a clear warning that fans who use illegal services are ... breaking the law.

Premier League fans have been warned they face heavy sanctions for watching illegal streams of games following the return of football this week ...

A crackdown on illegal football coverage in recent years has made it much tougher to watch games for free, and the City of London Police’s Intellectual Property Crime Unit (PIPCU) has warned those who consider relying on unofficial streams that large fines and prison sentences await them if they are caught.

Detective Chief Inspector Nick Court, the head of PIPCU, said: ... “Not only is it illegal to stream matches without paying for them," ...

Fact UK, leaders in intellectual property protection, stressed that the only way to avoid both criminal action ... is to utilise official and legal streams of the Premier League.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Martin Shaw » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:47 am

Anyway, regardless of the above, the real issue is that the club is being deprived of money at the time it needs it most.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby bellwhiff » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:53 am

Gazmoose82 wrote:
bellwhiff wrote:
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:https://15nbs.com/i-wouldnt-steal-a-car-but-is-illegal-streaming-really-a-crime/

The above link may be worth a read before everyone convicts Gaz of a criminal offence.

The is a huge difference between criminal and civil law and although streaming ifollow may be morally wrong it is not criminally wrong.

Stealing is stealing. It’s depriving the club of much needed income. I don’t care about the criminal side of it. He’s even crowing about his own lack of morals. What a raspberry


Usual mr perfect bellwhiff finishing off with a lovely un-funny insult. Classy


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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby bellwhiff » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:55 am

Martin Shaw wrote:Anyway, regardless of the above, the real issue is that the club is being deprived of money at the time it needs it most.

Which is the point. If you want to watch, you should pay.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby calvostag38 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:49 am

I have watched all of the games on I follow this season. It has not been a pleasant experience, and not just the team's performance. Against Forest Green last week, the picture didn't come on until the 41st minute, pretty similar watching us at Newport, and there has been an incident in every other game on the road. It was usually 10 - 15 minute picture delay after half time.
I don't want to sound petty, but come on! This is the highlight of mine and most stags fans week. I would never pull the plug as all the away funds go to the club.
I should imagine that with the poor service and amateurish streaming we are going to lose quite a bit of support. It is income all said and done, and realistically, you wouldn't treat a sponsor or partner like that would you. Sort it out, and quickly, it's important. KTF, COYS. The only way is up.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby The One » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:11 pm

Piece in Mail today, EFL lost 430k to illegal streams. EFL says its stealing.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby bellwhiff » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:12 pm

The One wrote:Piece in Mail today, EFL lost 430k to illegal streams. EFL says its stealing.


EFL is correct. Some clubs are in an existential threat and all are struggling yet we have people on here who brag about defrauding the club. It’s breathtaking.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Gazmoose82 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:19 pm

Maybe they should sort out there service first before crying about illegal streaming....they are happy to take people's money (sometimes twice for one match according to people on here) for there ropey coverage and customer service.
A quick Google search reveals hundreds of complaints about ifollows crappy coverage & Black screens of death etc.
Some might say they are also stealing from paying customers?!
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby bellwhiff » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:05 pm

Gazmoose82 wrote:Maybe they should sort out there service first before crying about illegal streaming....they are happy to take people's money (sometimes twice for one match according to people on here) for there ropey coverage and customer service.
A quick Google search reveals hundreds of complaints about ifollows crappy coverage & Black screens of death etc.
Some might say they are also stealing from paying customers?!

None of that justifies what you’re doing. Not a bit.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby ST4GS » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:52 pm

Gazmoose82 wrote:Maybe they should sort out there service first before crying about illegal streaming....they are happy to take people's money (sometimes twice for one match according to people on here) for there ropey coverage and customer service.
A quick Google search reveals hundreds of complaints about ifollows crappy coverage & Black screens of death etc.
Some might say they are also stealing from paying customers?!
Two wrongs don't make a right but I totally agree with your views regarding their perceived attitude towards their paying customers. I have never streamed a Stags match so I can't comment on the quality and reliability, I deliberately waited for feedback when these EFL midweek games first became available and was shocked at the number of complaints regarding the service provided, not just MTFC but other clubs too, there is an obvious common denominator here. You need 99%+ reliability when paying for streamed services, not 95%, 80% or something that is currently on offer.
You should be able to open a recommended browser, obtain the stream and it should be good for the whole time, no excuses.
I have a SKY subscription which has hardly ever let me down (maybe a minute or so in very heavy rain). If SKY treated me this way in continually providing a patchy service without promise of improvement I would soon be on the phone giving them grief and demanding refunds and answers as would all of us. Why should ifollow, who just because they pass on funds directly to MTFC rather than SKY who fund MTFC indirectly via the EFL, get a smoother ride?
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Chander Lear » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:13 pm

i know you cannot help the weather but Saturday was a joke, Cannot even cover the camera man. Could barely see, he wiped it, then 2 mins later it was covered again.

This, for a paying service...
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby JSBAPH » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:40 pm

I wouldn't have minded seeing the camera man wipe the lens. Better than a frozen screen.
Oh well...
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Martin Shaw » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:16 pm

The One wrote:Piece in Mail today, EFL lost 430k to illegal streams. EFL says its stealing.


Two articles from Mailonline yesterday.
- more than £430,000 has been lost to illegal streaming. EFL's chief commercial officer Ben Wright: "Put simply it's stealing."
- the average number of complaints or issues each weekend amounts to one per cent of users.

from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... tches.html

EFL claim they have lost almost £500,000 due to illegal streaming of matches in the Championship and below as they appeal to fans to help them eliminate threat of piracy
- Clubs in the EFL estimate more than £430,000 has been lost to illegal streaming
- Streaming the games not available on TV has brought in around about £8million
- It does not go far towards filling the £250m void of football behind closed doors
- A sharp increase in the rates of piracy, however, is causing concern for revenue

By MATT BARLOW FOR MAILONLINE, 18 November 2020

Clubs in the EFL estimate more than £430,000 has been lost to illegal streaming of games this season and have launched a campaign appealing to fans to help them beat the pirates.

Streaming the games not available on TV has brought in a total of about £8million across the 72 clubs in the Championship and Leagues One and Two.

It does not go far towards filling the £250m void of football behind closed doors but the iFollow services and independent club equivalents have provided a vital trickle of revenue.

More than a million streams have been accessed by season ticket holders or the match passes sold for £10 each per game.

A sharp increase in the rates of piracy, however, is causing concern, with broadcasts shared illegally via YouTube, Facebook and dedicated pirate-streaming websites or screened in some pubs.

Fourteen illegal streams of Sheffield Wednesday's 1-0 win at Birmingham last month were detected by the EFL's online security team. Eleven of them shut down.

Most focused around two private Facebook groups, 'SWFC Naughties' and 'Wednesday Till I Die' with a combined following of more than 4,000, which have since been permanently closed down.

EFL clubs met to discuss the matter this week and launched a campaign, appealing to the better nature of their supporters, urging them to avoid and report illegal streams so they can close them down.

Also with warnings that action can be taken by clubs against fans who abuse the iFollow agreement.

'This is a real problem,' said the EFL's chief commercial officer Ben Wright. 'It's costing our clubs money at a time when they don't need to be losing revenue. Put simply it's stealing.'


--------------------------

from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... clubs.html

EFL's live streaming service iFollow has generated more than £11million for clubs this season but attracts 1,000 'complaints' EACH WEEKEND as fans struggle to log on and sound and vision are not in sync
- iFollow service has given fans a lifeline to watch their clubs during lockdown
- More than one million streams have been delivered from matches this season
- Clubs have secured vital revenue but it is a fraction of usual gate receipts
- Service has been hit by problems that have affected 1% of customers
- A Papa John's Trophy game made just £330, equivalent of 33 £10 match passes

By CHARLIE WALKER FOR MAILONLINE, 18 November 2020

Clubs in the EFL have generated more than £11 million from streaming live league and cup matches this season, but the service is attracting 1,000 'complaints' every weekend, Sportsmail can reveal

The income from streaming games is welcomed by clubs, but it accounts for little more than one tenth of the revenue they would have made from matchday ticket sales if fans had been in grounds.

And the experience for some fans falls short of expectations with common problems including, live feeds not starting until part way through the game and the commentary and images being out of sync.

The majority of teams in the Championship, League One and League Two have been streaming their fixtures via the iFollow service and typically the platform attracts 100,000 users each weekend.

Although not every encounter has excited the punters, with one Papa John's Trophy match generating just £330, the equivalent of 33 £10 match passes.

Over 11 rounds of league games, total domestic revenue stands at £7.7 million, with each weekend of fixtures bringing in £796,000 and midweek matches making £620,000.

In total, 1.26 million people have accessed EFL matches, which includes 483,000 season ticket holders and 772,000 buying match passes.

And in addition, 267,000 fans have watched FA Cup, Carabao Cup and Papa John's Trophy games, generating a further £2.7m.

Fans from abroad have been logging on to get their fix, too, spending £1.4 million to watch the action.

Exact arrangements can vary between clubs, but generally supporters can access the live stream by redeeming their season ticket, purchasing a matchday pass for £10 or a season pass.

Fan forums and club websites have documented problems in streaming during the last few months.

One Norwich fan went online after his side won 1-0 away at Huddersfield Town.

'My iFollow didn't start till the 12th minute and thereafter the commentary was 30 seconds behind,' said the disgruntled supporter, who was fortunate the Canaries' winner, from Adam Idah, was scored in the 80th minute.

'I shall be asking for a full refund on the basis that I didn't get the full match that I paid for. I suggest everyone does the same and refuse a credit. It won't get better unless we complain.'

Despite the problems, the iFollow service has maintained a valuable link between clubs and fans, and created a lifeline of revenue for sides crippled by the absence of crowds.

The EFL points out that overall, despite the challenges, the scheme has been a success in unprecedented circumstances.

'This has been a massive operation for us,' said a spokeswoman. ' We cannot say it is without fault, but we have to look at the amount of streams that have been successfully delivered.'

The number of complaints was reported to the EFL clubs meeting last week. While they were listed as complaints in a report about iFollow performance, the EFL told Sportsmail they do not all relate to poor service. For example, they include instances where people have inputted the wrong code or had other connectivity problems such as a poor WiFi connection.

The EFL says overall, one million streams have been completed and the average number of complaints or issues each weekend amounts to one per cent.

'We have had technical issues and we continue to work through those,' added the spokeswoman.

While the income from the live streams is welcome, it is small beer compared to the revenue from a normal matchday with fans present. A point the EFL is keen to stress.

Football finance analyst, Kieran Maguire, who has studied the figures and agrees the value to clubs is limited.

'It's a welcome contribution for clubs, but it is not the answer to their financial needs and especially for those clubs in League One and Two,' said Maguire, a lecturer at the University of Liverpool.

'Clubs are getting 10 to 15 per cent of the money they would expect to get through the turnstiles. It is not a replacement for ticket sales.'

Maguire points out that the financial crisis among League Two, One and Championship clubs still requires external intervention and discussions with the Premier League over a bail out are yet to be concluded.

In the lower leagues, EFL is still pushing for the Premier League to convert its offer of £20m of grants and £30m of loans into one pot of £50m in grants.

The EFL argues clubs simply cannot take on more debt.

Meanwhile, the EFL and Premier League continue to work out how to support the Championship clubs. The latest suggestion is for a £200m loan facility for second tier teams, which was suggested at an EFL meeting last week, but details have yet to emerge.

'There seems to be a concept without any meat on the bones,' QPR chief executive Lee Hoos told Sportsmail.

'But at least the Premier League is now talking about the Championship, whereas before the Championship was frozen out altogether.'

Hoos is not optimistic that the EFL and Premier League will come to an agreement soon, fearing it could be weeks rather than days.

Loans to Championship clubs would be repayable from regular payments the Premier League makes to them each year.


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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Mansf1eld » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:24 pm

How about getting the service that people have payed for right first?
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby gazza1988 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:18 pm

Found a potential solution to the spinning circle "play" button.

Disable hardware acceleration.

1.On chrome click the 3 dots in the top right. Click settings

2. Scroll down to the very bottom and click "advanced".

3. Scroll down the the very bottom again and disable "use hardware acceleration when available"

4. Once disabled a "relaunch" button will appear. Click this and chrome wl Close all tabs and then relaunch them.

I've not had a single issue yet with playback whereas before it was stop start at best.

Chrome does have a search feature on the settings page. A search for just "hardware" shows the option we need. Eliminating the need for steps 2 and 3.

It is likely the issue for most browsers. The steps will be very similar. If anyone needs any further help and for a specific browser I'll help the best I can.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby georgefostersbeard » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:55 am

gazza1988 wrote:Found a potential solution to the spinning circle "play" button.

Disable hardware acceleration.

1.On chrome click the 3 dots in the top right. Click settings

2. Scroll down to the very bottom and click "advanced".

3. Scroll down the the very bottom again and disable "use hardware acceleration when available"

4. Once disabled a "relaunch" button will appear. Click this and chrome wl Close all tabs and then relaunch them.

I've not had a single issue yet with playback whereas before it was stop start at best.

Chrome does have a search feature on the settings page. A search for just "hardware" shows the option we need. Eliminating the need for steps 2 and 3.

It is likely the issue for most browsers. The steps will be very similar. If anyone needs any further help and for a specific browser I'll help the best I can.


I have had awful problems in recent weeks. Last night, I went into my phone app and logged out (as suggested by Part Time Pete) and watched on a laptop connected up to the TV by HMDI cable with no issues whatsover.
I connected straightaway, didn't see the spinning circle and was able to watch in full screen which has been an issue before.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Bradders » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:21 am

Gazmoose82 wrote:Maybe they should sort out there service first before crying about illegal streaming....they are happy to take people's money (sometimes twice for one match according to people on here) for there ropey coverage and customer service.
A quick Google search reveals hundreds of complaints about ifollows crappy coverage & Black screens of death etc.
Some might say they are also stealing from paying customers?!

I don't have any problems watching a match on iFollow these days, and obviously most people have no problem either. It's hard to imagine how iFollow can fix problems that are clearly to do with the myriad of different setups that people have at home; their broadcast works, otherwise we'd all have similar problems.

Although it's not a perfect picture it's quite good, and never drops out or pauses or anything similar.
It's still unsatisfactory, as it really needs to have a TV app so that you don't need to connect a laptop, and the picture is still prone to dropping frames, but it's not as bad as being made out by people who obviously have issues with their home setup. Admittedly in an ideal world the broadcast would cope with slow broadband, less then optimum configurations and so on, but in practice it can't be done.

Obviously if you have a modern TV and would pay a monthly subscription you'd be guaranteed satisfaction via an app, but I guess that iFollow aren't allowed to do that. It would be great for the current circumstances but would kill away support in the longer term. Big clubs would still have thousands of fans willing to travel even though they could watch live from home, but it would reduce the Stags away following to little more than a handful of the most dedicated.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Bradders » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:26 am

georgefostersbeard wrote:
gazza1988 wrote:Found a potential solution to the spinning circle "play" button.

Disable hardware acceleration.

1.On chrome click the 3 dots in the top right. Click settings

2. Scroll down to the very bottom and click "advanced".

3. Scroll down the the very bottom again and disable "use hardware acceleration when available"

4. Once disabled a "relaunch" button will appear. Click this and chrome wl Close all tabs and then relaunch them.

I've not had a single issue yet with playback whereas before it was stop start at best.

Chrome does have a search feature on the settings page. A search for just "hardware" shows the option we need. Eliminating the need for steps 2 and 3.

It is likely the issue for most browsers. The steps will be very similar. If anyone needs any further help and for a specific browser I'll help the best I can.


I have had awful problems in recent weeks. Last night, I went into my phone app and logged out (as suggested by Part Time Pete) and watched on a laptop connected up to the TV by HMDI cable with no issues whatsover.
I connected straightaway, didn't see the spinning circle and was able to watch in full screen which has been an issue before.

It seems that a few of us have come to the conclusion that this is the best setup. It proves that the actual broadcast is fine. Note that even if your broadband is a bit slow, you can reduce the picture quality via the browser window to help keep the motion smooth. I've been using it on fast broadband in HD quality and it's about 90% as good as a TV broadcast.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Walton Stag » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:53 am

Last night on my iPad, I originally accessed the picture through the app but could not get it to connect to the TV. Any ideas?
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby one f in mansfield » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:03 am

gazza1988 wrote:Found a potential solution to the spinning circle "play" button.

Disable hardware acceleration.

1.On chrome click the 3 dots in the top right. Click settings

2. Scroll down to the very bottom and click "advanced".

3. Scroll down the the very bottom again and disable "use hardware acceleration when available"

4. Once disabled a "relaunch" button will appear. Click this and chrome wl Close all tabs and then relaunch them.

I've not had a single issue yet with playback whereas before it was stop start at best.

Chrome does have a search feature on the settings page. A search for just "hardware" shows the option we need. Eliminating the need for steps 2 and 3.

It is likely the issue for most browsers. The steps will be very similar. If anyone needs any further help and for a specific browser I'll help the best I can.


I connect my laptop to my tv with a single lead . Go on to EFL site and follow very easy instructions to get the games. If I had to change anything at all on my laptop I would forfeit my £10 for that game and never make another purchase. While these solutions may seem very simple to most posters there are still many older fans who will regard them as witchcraft. My brother in law would compare your simple instructions to buying a new lightbulb and then being told how to rewire his house before it would work.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Bradders » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:43 pm

one f in mansfield wrote:
gazza1988 wrote:Found a potential solution to the spinning circle "play" button.

Disable hardware acceleration.

1.On chrome click the 3 dots in the top right. Click settings

2. Scroll down to the very bottom and click "advanced".

3. Scroll down the the very bottom again and disable "use hardware acceleration when available"

4. Once disabled a "relaunch" button will appear. Click this and chrome wl Close all tabs and then relaunch them.

I've not had a single issue yet with playback whereas before it was stop start at best.

Chrome does have a search feature on the settings page. A search for just "hardware" shows the option we need. Eliminating the need for steps 2 and 3.

It is likely the issue for most browsers. The steps will be very similar. If anyone needs any further help and for a specific browser I'll help the best I can.


I connect my laptop to my tv with a single lead . Go on to EFL site and follow very easy instructions to get the games. If I had to change anything at all on my laptop I would forfeit my £10 for that game and never make another purchase. While these solutions may seem very simple to most posters there are still many older fans who will regard them as witchcraft. My brother in law would compare your simple instructions to buying a new lightbulb and then being told how to rewire his house before it would work.

I agree that this sort of thing is highly unsatisfactory, but the alternative is for no coverage at all. Obviously a TV app would be miles better, I think that it's a very expensive option though and beyond the budget of iFollow.
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Re: iFollow, including new App

Postby Martin Shaw » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:57 pm

"Four points clear as Lincoln are McCaffreyised", CHAD headline, April 1975
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