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3G/4G pitches

Postby stagone1959 » Sun May 23, 2021 5:29 pm

Can't play on a plastic pitch in the EFL,shouldn't get promoted to it playing on one.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby cassellswasmagic » Sun May 23, 2021 7:11 pm

Sneag wrote:
stagone1959 wrote:Can't play on a plastic pitch in the EFL,shouldn't get promoted to it playing on one.


If teams getting promoted on plastic pitches keeps the Cheats & the skunks in the 5th circle of Hell for another season, I'm all for it.

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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Sedgwick » Mon May 24, 2021 9:38 am

Amber Andy wrote:So that's another "plastic pitch" that will need digging up.


Yep and rightly so!
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby adamstag » Mon May 24, 2021 1:36 pm

Having to dig up 4g pitches (which england have played an international on which Southgate and the players said they noticed no difference!) because dinosaurs at the EFL insist is happens is ludicrous.

If anything lower league clubs should be looking to bring them in when possible, look at us for instance - no dodgy pitch like last year, no frost down the west hand side of the pitch, more games can be played on it.

It’s staggering that sutton (and harrogate last season) have to do so.
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National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby bellwhiff » Mon May 24, 2021 1:49 pm

adamstag wrote:Having to dig up 4g pitches (which england have played an international on which Southgate and the players said they noticed no difference!) because dinosaurs at the EFL insist is happens is ludicrous.

If anything lower league clubs should be looking to bring them in when possible, look at us for instance - no dodgy pitch like last year, no frost down the west hand side of the pitch, more games can be played on it.

It’s staggering that sutton (and harrogate last season) have to do so.


Spot on. Luddites need to move on. These pitches are good enough for league football. We aren’t talking about the ridiculous Luton and Oldham pitches of the 80s.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby adamstag » Mon May 24, 2021 2:04 pm

*edit - think it was hodgson not southgate - it was against lithuania
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Rob » Mon May 24, 2021 3:59 pm

adamstag wrote:Having to dig up 4g pitches (which england have played an international on which Southgate and the players said they noticed no difference!) because dinosaurs at the EFL insist is happens is ludicrous.

If anything lower league clubs should be looking to bring them in when possible, look at us for instance - no dodgy pitch like last year, no frost down the west hand side of the pitch, more games can be played on it.

It’s staggering that sutton (and harrogate last season) have to do so.


As I've said many, many times I completely agree. They'd laugh at this in Holland, Germany, Scandinavia etc. I could just about accept an argument that the top 2 divisions, where all the money is, should be grass, but not Div 3 and 4. As the Sutton Chairman said, dinosaurs.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Sedgwick » Mon May 24, 2021 4:21 pm

bellwhiff wrote:
adamstag wrote:Having to dig up 4g pitches (which england have played an international on which Southgate and the players said they noticed no difference!) because dinosaurs at the EFL insist is happens is ludicrous.

If anything lower league clubs should be looking to bring them in when possible, look at us for instance - no dodgy pitch like last year, no frost down the west hand side of the pitch, more games can be played on it.

It’s staggering that sutton (and harrogate last season) have to do so.


Spot on. Luddites need to move on. These pitches are good enough for league football. We aren’t talking about the ridiculous Luton and Oldham pitches of the 80s.


The thing is... these 3G pitches, there isn't just one kind you can get... Ive seen some at academies (weirdly indoor!) that are no different to grass, some are plastic and some are hybrid but less so than than the desso grass pitches.

these ones conference clubs have are no different to what you'd get down at power league and they aren't good enough. You'd all complain and be against it the minute a player turns and does his ACL infront of everyone, there's more of a risk with them and still why a lot of professional clubs don't allow first team senior pros near them. Yes they've gotten much better but they still aren't good enough for league football.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby kevin kents tasce » Mon May 24, 2021 4:27 pm

Genuine question,

Why aren’t they good enough for league football in England, but they are good enough in France, Russia, Scotland, Switzerland and Portugal (amongst others)?

Also, why are they suitable for top level Rugby but not football?

I’m no expert in pitches, but I find it hard to understand the argument against the benefits of artificial grass.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby adamstag » Mon May 24, 2021 4:36 pm

Sedgwick wrote:
bellwhiff wrote:
adamstag wrote:Having to dig up 4g pitches (which england have played an international on which Southgate and the players said they noticed no difference!) because dinosaurs at the EFL insist is happens is ludicrous.

If anything lower league clubs should be looking to bring them in when possible, look at us for instance - no dodgy pitch like last year, no frost down the west hand side of the pitch, more games can be played on it.

It’s staggering that sutton (and harrogate last season) have to do so.


Spot on. Luddites need to move on. These pitches are good enough for league football. We aren’t talking about the ridiculous Luton and Oldham pitches of the 80s.


The thing is... these 3G pitches, there isn't just one kind you can get... Ive seen some at academies (weirdly indoor!) that are no different to grass, some are plastic and some are hybrid but less so than than the desso grass pitches.

these ones conference clubs have are no different to what you'd get down at power league and they aren't good enough. You'd all complain and be against it the minute a player turns and does his ACL infront of everyone, there's more of a risk with them and still why a lot of professional clubs don't allow first team senior pros near them. Yes they've gotten much better but they still aren't good enough for league football.


But yet UEFA say they’re good enough for internationals? :shock:

In short you’re saying it’s not good enough for league 2 but is good enough for england?

I’m intrigued to understand how this equation works?
Last edited by adamstag on Mon May 24, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Sedgwick » Mon May 24, 2021 4:43 pm

kevin kents tasce wrote:Genuine question,

Why aren’t they good enough for league football in England, but they are good enough in France, Russia, Scotland, Switzerland and Portugal (amongst others)?

Also, why are they suitable for top level Rugby but not football?

I’m no expert in pitches, but I find it hard to understand the argument against the benefits of artificial grass.


They probably are, all the things they tell you about injuries etc and it effecting the game are probably blown out of proportion.. I have been at clubs where players are strictly forbidden to go on it... despite these clubs having 3g pitches at their training grounds anyway?? Chelseas 3g pitch is a funny one, they claim it needed redoing because the ball will bounce differently at one end to the other.

I think a massive part of it is tradition, the FA wanting to keep certain things the way they are. They came very close to not allowing them in the FA cup.

With Rugby, Id guess because they only run on it? the ball doesn't really become affecting by the surface where as football it does.

Ive always thought they weren't up to it but would like to hear from an expert.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Sedgwick » Mon May 24, 2021 4:45 pm

adamstag wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
bellwhiff wrote:
adamstag wrote:Having to dig up 4g pitches (which england have played an international on which Southgate and the players said they noticed no difference!) because dinosaurs at the EFL insist is happens is ludicrous.

If anything lower league clubs should be looking to bring them in when possible, look at us for instance - no dodgy pitch like last year, no frost down the west hand side of the pitch, more games can be played on it.

It’s staggering that sutton (and harrogate last season) have to do so.


Spot on. Luddites need to move on. These pitches are good enough for league football. We aren’t talking about the ridiculous Luton and Oldham pitches of the 80s.


The thing is... these 3G pitches, there isn't just one kind you can get... Ive seen some at academies (weirdly indoor!) that are no different to grass, some are plastic and some are hybrid but less so than than the desso grass pitches.

these ones conference clubs have are no different to what you'd get down at power league and they aren't good enough. You'd all complain and be against it the minute a player turns and does his ACL infront of everyone, there's more of a risk with them and still why a lot of professional clubs don't allow first team senior pros near them. Yes they've gotten much better but they still aren't good enough for league football.


But yet UEFA say they’re good enough for internationals? :shock:

In short you’re saying it’s good enough for league 2 but is good enough for england?

I’m intrigued to understand how this equation works?


I believe Uefa have to allow them to make internationals accessible to more countries, some that have absolutely no funding.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby adamstag » Mon May 24, 2021 4:55 pm

Sedgwick wrote:
adamstag wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
bellwhiff wrote:
adamstag wrote:Having to dig up 4g pitches (which england have played an international on which Southgate and the players said they noticed no difference!) because dinosaurs at the EFL insist is happens is ludicrous.

If anything lower league clubs should be looking to bring them in when possible, look at us for instance - no dodgy pitch like last year, no frost down the west hand side of the pitch, more games can be played on it.

It’s staggering that sutton (and harrogate last season) have to do so.


Spot on. Luddites need to move on. These pitches are good enough for league football. We aren’t talking about the ridiculous Luton and Oldham pitches of the 80s.


The thing is... these 3G pitches, there isn't just one kind you can get... Ive seen some at academies (weirdly indoor!) that are no different to grass, some are plastic and some are hybrid but less so than than the desso grass pitches.

these ones conference clubs have are no different to what you'd get down at power league and they aren't good enough. You'd all complain and be against it the minute a player turns and does his ACL infront of everyone, there's more of a risk with them and still why a lot of professional clubs don't allow first team senior pros near them. Yes they've gotten much better but they still aren't good enough for league football.


But yet UEFA say they’re good enough for internationals? :shock:

In short you’re saying it’s not good enough for league 2 but is good enough for england?

I’m intrigued to understand how this equation works?


I believe Uefa have to allow them to make internationals accessible to more countries, some that have absolutely no funding.


fair enough, always interested by differing views and that’s what a forum is for.

That’s more my point though, for lower league clubs who have a lot less funding than bigger clubs they’d be practical as it substantially lowers the odds of a game being off which is financially beneficial to all.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby kevin kents tasce » Mon May 24, 2021 4:56 pm

I think tradition probably does play a bit part in it.

It’s an interesting debate and i’d enjoy to read some proper research into it.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Rob » Mon May 24, 2021 6:57 pm

Almost all Dutch amateur and kids football is played on 4G, it is also used in the Eredivisie. I've reff'd on the indoor pitch at St George's a few times and it is a perfect surface, no bare patches, no mud, no divots etc etc. Almost all clubs, including our own, train on these surfaces. For lower league clubs they provide additional income, no postponed games, a local community facility and many would argue a far better surface than most lower league grass pitches in the winter. Initial costs are high, but are more than recouped in quite a short period.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Mon May 24, 2021 7:11 pm

Rob wrote:Almost all Dutch amateur and kids football is played on 4G, it is also used in the Eredivisie. I've reff'd on the indoor pitch at St George's a few times and it is a perfect surface, no bare patches, no mud, no divots etc etc. Almost all clubs, including our own, train on these surfaces. For lower league clubs they provide additional income, no postponed games, a local community facility and many would argue a far better surface than most lower league grass pitches in the winter. Initial costs are high, but are more than recouped in quite a short period.


Sorry Rob but I've watched numerous Scottish matches on these pitches this season due to lockdown, to me its nothing like watching one on grass.

To me, along with VAR it's another way of making the game 'sterile' for want of a better phrase.
Without the things you mention above like mud, divots etc it's just too 'perfect' which detracts from Dave Syrett, Kevin Pilkington moments.

I can obviously understand the financial benefits but it's not for me.

If people have Sky I would urge them to watch Killie v Dundee in the play off tonight and make their own mind up as I believe they play on plaggy?
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby adamstag » Mon May 24, 2021 7:24 pm

Parkinsons Perm wrote:
Rob wrote:Almost all Dutch amateur and kids football is played on 4G, it is also used in the Eredivisie. I've reff'd on the indoor pitch at St George's a few times and it is a perfect surface, no bare patches, no mud, no divots etc etc. Almost all clubs, including our own, train on these surfaces. For lower league clubs they provide additional income, no postponed games, a local community facility and many would argue a far better surface than most lower league grass pitches in the winter. Initial costs are high, but are more than recouped in quite a short period.


Sorry Rob but I've watched numerous Scottish matches on these pitches this season due to lockdown, to me its nothing like watching one on grass.

To me, along with VAR it's another way of making the game 'sterile' for want of a better phrase.
Without the things you mention above like mud, divots etc it's just too 'perfect' which detracts from Dave Syrett, Kevin Pilkington moments.

I can obviously understand the financial benefits but it's not for me.

If people have Sky I would urge them to watch Killie v Dundee in the play off tonight and make their own mind up as I believe they play on plaggy?


Is that just because you’ve watched scottish football? :lol:
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon May 24, 2021 7:25 pm

We’ve all probably played on the 4G pitches and you have to say that it is different to playing on grass. The ball bounces differently.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Rob » Mon May 24, 2021 8:06 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:We’ve all probably played on the 4G pitches and you have to say that it is different to playing on grass. The ball bounces differently.


It also bounces differently between various grass pitches. In fact, it bounces differently on the same grass pitch!

I am watching the Killie game and the pitch is playing absolutely perfectly.

It will take dinosaurs time to get used to it, as it did when the crossbar replaced tape ;)
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Dan » Mon May 24, 2021 8:44 pm

Dundee have been fantastic first half. They play on grass at home and look like they play on plastic all the time compared to Killie who have been woeful. Hamilton have got a plastic pitch and they’ve gone down so it doesn’t always help those who play on it all the time and can actually be a leveller.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Amber Andy » Mon May 24, 2021 10:34 pm

It all started going downhill when they took the laces out of the ball. :)
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Dan » Mon May 24, 2021 10:56 pm

Ilkeston have shared photos of their pitch being ripped up today as they are putting down “state of the art 4G”.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Spiritater » Tue May 25, 2021 8:12 am

Plastic sanitised football, meh!! Would sooner see the grass with all its ups and downs.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby stagone1959 » Tue May 25, 2021 8:27 am

The game is not the same on plastic,go to Basford or Staveley and see.It is more like a game of five a side.They are good for community clubs like Staveley as they generate extra revenue but they should be confined to below the National league.
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Re: National League promotion & play-offs thread

Postby Rob » Tue May 25, 2021 8:45 am

stagone1959 wrote:The game is not the same on plastic,go to Basford or Staveley and see.It is more like a game of five a side.They are good for community clubs like Staveley as they generate extra revenue but they should be confined to below the National league.


So Sutton isn't a community club? Harrogate?

Clubs at our level should have the choice, I suspect given our pitch issues over the years we'd adopt it given the chance. Its good enough for international football, champions league, Europa league and many top divisions across the world, it's therefore good enough for Div 4 :D
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