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Defensive frailties

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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:11 am

Dan wrote:When I watched Hewitt at Notts he was mostly a midfielder and then a right back. He's only played about 20 games at centre half.


He wasn't very good in midfield so moved to RB, he was even worse at RB so moved to CB where relegation was achieved, his second relegation and yet the much vaunted Clough scouting team sign him up for a third pop at relegation!!!
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sedgwick » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:19 am

Parkinsons Perm wrote:
Dan wrote:When I watched Hewitt at Notts he was mostly a midfielder and then a right back. He's only played about 20 games at centre half.


He wasn't very good in midfield so moved to RB, he was even worse at RB so moved to CB where relegation was achieved, his second relegation and yet the much vaunted Clough scouting team sign him up for a third pop at relegation!!!


Seen him play week in week out have you?
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sneag » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:41 am

Parkinsons Perm wrote:
Dan wrote:When I watched Hewitt at Notts he was mostly a midfielder and then a right back. He's only played about 20 games at centre half.


He wasn't very good in midfield so moved to RB, he was even worse at RB so moved to CB where relegation was achieved, his second relegation and yet the much vaunted Clough scouting team sign him up for a third pop at relegation!!!


The back 4 that helped get us relegated to the conference all went on to have productive careers at a higher level.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:46 am

Sneag wrote:
Parkinsons Perm wrote:
Dan wrote:When I watched Hewitt at Notts he was mostly a midfielder and then a right back. He's only played about 20 games at centre half.


He wasn't very good in midfield so moved to RB, he was even worse at RB so moved to CB where relegation was achieved, his second relegation and yet the much vaunted Clough scouting team sign him up for a third pop at relegation!!!


The back 4 that helped get us relegated to the conference all went on to have productive careers at a higher level.


Indeed they did. They all had something about them but for some reason they just didn't play as a unit and the rest is history.

Hewitt has nothing about him whatsoever.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:08 am

It’s common knowledge how I’ve felt about Gordon for some time. I thought he had a better game yesterday apart from the obvious bloomer and a few he got away with. One of my main gripes with him is his failure to chase back when he loses the ball. He leaves acres of space and does nothing to close it down.

If he chased his man a bit more, I would be happier as their is no pressure to hurry the pass or cross making a goal more likely. Gordon wasn’t even in the video yesterday when the ball hit the net.

If Clough won’t play Clarke, we are stuck with Gordon until January and I don’t think he will replace him even then as centre halves will be the budget’s priority. Even though Clarke is a little lightweight I’d play him now as he will improve with games. If Clough won’t then he needs to get Gordon chasing back when he loses the ball and put a bit of pressure on the attacker.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Dan » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:58 am

Ryan Sweeney playing in the Dundee derby today (against Calum Butcher)
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:21 pm

Dan wrote:When I watched Hewitt at Notts he was mostly a midfielder and then a right back. He's only played about 20 games at centre half.


Elliott Hewitt started his career as a right back at Macclesfield Town. He was signed by Ipswich Town for around £150,000 and was tipped by the Macclesfield Chairman to become the next Gareth Bale. He was loaned out to Gillingham in 2013-2014 and played right back and holding midfield. He was loaned out to Col U in 2014-2015 and played a couple of positions which may have been right back and right wing. He seems to have played right back, centre midfield and centre half for Notts County and then mainly played centre midfield and right back for Grimsby before finishing the season off playing at right centre half next to Rollin Menayese.

E’s one Ell of a player - Macclesfield Express 24th August 2011
"He may be reluctant to single out individuals but Macc Town boss Gary Simpson couldn’t help purring at the potential in academy prospect Elliott Hewitt. He may be reluctant to single out individuals but Macc Town boss Gary Simpson couldn’t help purring at the potential in academy prospect Elliott Hewitt. The youngster, recalled to the Wales U-21s for next month’s match in Montenegro, linked brilliantly with Sam Wedgbury on Saturday. And his attacking prowess, which saw him terrorise Pirates’ left-back Lee Brown, left his manager in no doubt as to what Hewitt can achieve.

"I’ve said before how good he is, but our 17-year-old right back was like a right winger," said Simpson. "He put that many balls into the box they couldn’t handle him, they took one off and put another one on to try to stop him. "I don’t want to just pick him out but I thought he was superb. Sam Wedgbury did a great job on the right hand side for us, he worked extremely hard. Elliott was up and down and they complemented each other well. "

And Wedgbury himself was also happy to extol his young team-mate’s virtues."Elliott is awesome," inisisted the midfielder. "My legs had gone after about 85 minutes, and he was doing all my running, I’d just go ‘Yes Elliott go on’, he was brilliant. Sometimes I have to be a bit defensive minded to let him get forward because he’s good at making that late run. He’s got a really bright future ahead of him though, a lot of potential. I think if any of the big boys come sniffing and let him come back here on loan but you don’t want to count your chickens. He’s just a quality player."


Elliott Hewitt tipped for top after Ipswich switch - Manchester Evening News 1st June 2012
"Macclesfield chairman Mike Rance has tipped Elliott Hewitt to become the next Gareth Bale after signing a three-year deal with Ipswich. The promising right-back completed his big-money move to the Championship outfit this week on what happened to be his 18th birthday. Macc will receive an initial fee of around £150,000 for the Wales under-21 international, which could rise to as much as £500,000 with performance-related extras, surpassing the club record £300,000 they received from Stockport for Rickie Lambert in 2002.

“I’m happy he’s going to a club where he has a reasonable chance of making first-team appearances and getting promoted into the Premier League,” said Rance. “I’ll watch Elliott’s progress with great interest because I believe he has the potential to be another Gareth Bale. He’s strong and aggressive on the pitch and he’s a nice young man, and even though I’ve only had a small part to play in his career I’ll be very proud.”

Elliott Hewitt Extends Gills Stay 31 January 2014 - Gillingham Website
"Peter Taylor has secured his key deadline day signing with the news that on loan Ipswich Town right-back Elliott Hewitt has extended his deal until the end of the 2013/14 season. The 19 year-old Wales Under-21 international has played five times for the Gills since first signing on loan in November. Elliott impressed playing in the defensive midfield role in Gillingham’s 3-2 home win against Stevenage but has made the right-back role his own since returning from injury in the recent 2-0 home win over Swindon Town."

Hewitt Recalled From Colchester Wednesday, 25th Mar 2015
"Elliott Hewitt has been recalled from his loan at Colchester United. The Wales U21 international had been due to spend the rest of the season with the U's. The Blues are in need of cover at full-back with Tyrone Mings suspended for two games having picked up 10 bookings and Jonny Parr having missed the win at Watford after suffering a knock in the victory over Bolton. Colchester boss Tony Humes is disappointed to lose the 20-year-old, who initially joined the League One club in October and made 24 starts, scoring one goal. "We hoped we would have Elliott for the remainder of the season but Ipswich have taken him back for their run-in," Humes told the Colchester club site. He's done a great job in a couple of positions for us and we wish him well for the future."

"Having been used briefly as a winger during his time at Ipswich, U's boss Tony Humes began to use him in this position over the course of the season, exploiting his attacking nature and pace. He scored his first senior goal against Peterborough United on 10 January 2015, a solo run from his own half to finish from 20 yards."

Notts County Forum
Notts County fans clearly do not rate Elliott Hewitt as a right back

"Lesson number 1 of managing Elliott Hewitt. Never ever play him at right-back. All he has to do is watch our 4-0 loss to Yeovil in August 2018 and see our woeful he was there."

"He was decent in central midfield with Yates. Was OK-ish as a stand-in CB."

"In CM he was decent but nothing special, I'd say he was tidy, but you're right about this and him playing as a CB."

"Hewitt's positioning at right back hasn't changed one bit. Exactly the same as before, doesn't close anybody down and lets people dribble past him as if he's not there."

"As for playing Hewitt at right back, I can only assume Mansfield are missing their days out at Meadow Lane and are gunning for a place in the National League. I thought Hewitt could do a job in centre midfield if paired with someone decent (Yates) or experienced. It was also handy to have a midfielder who could step into central defence if need be. But at right back he was an absolute disaster, yet we persisted with it for what felt like years. By the time the penny finally dropped and he was moved back into midfield, his confidence was shot."
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bellwhiff » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:54 pm

When it comes to football, he’s more Christian than Gareth.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby NEStag » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:42 pm

We seemed to have talked ourselves into the idea that it's injuries that have done for us. Businesses and teams do this sort of thing to avoid the difficult questions.

We've basically got two injuries - one decent centre half (Perch) and one injury of someone who didn't seem to be doing well before he got injured (Nartey). We've still got two fit centre halves (Rawson and Hewitt). And then we've Forrester but he was injured when we signed him so I don't think we can really count that as bad luck (players that get injured can stay injured).

The injuries seem like a bit of an excuse when the facts are (a) the players who can still play don't seem good enough and (b) we either didn't sign enough decent players in the transfer window or we should have held back more cover instead of loaning out.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bellwhiff » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:49 pm

NEStag wrote:We seemed to have talked ourselves into the idea that it's injuries that have done for us. Businesses and teams do this sort of thing to avoid the difficult questions.

We've basically got two injuries - one decent centre half (Perch) and one injury of someone who didn't seem to be doing well before he got injured (Nartey). We've still got two fit centre halves (Rawson and Hewitt). And then we've Forrester but he was injured when we signed him so I don't think we can really count that as bad luck (players that get injured can stay injured).

The injuries seem like a bit of an excuse when the facts are (a) the players who can still play don't seem good enough and (b) we either didn't sign enough decent players in the transfer window or we should have held back more cover instead of loaning out.


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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby pemill » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:50 pm

Clough's comment earlier in the season keeps coming to mind; "Perch is our best centre back".
That's not exactly a motivator for the others, a midfielder moved to CB and is our best, like others have eluded to, it doesn't say a lot for our recruitment either.
Whilst a lot of what NC says makes a lot of sense he does in my opinion, come out with some comments which could damage the confidence of others.

I've still got concerns with his policy of 'not making mistakes' this is L2 afterall, in any case you see mistakes in the Champions League that lead to goals, we need to model our play on something more robust than that.

It's a winning mentality that's missing more than anything.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:08 pm

NEStag wrote:We seemed to have talked ourselves into the idea that it's injuries that have done for us. Businesses and teams do this sort of thing to avoid the difficult questions.

We've basically got two injuries - one decent centre half (Perch) and one injury of someone who didn't seem to be doing well before he got injured (Nartey). We've still got two fit centre halves (Rawson and Hewitt). And then we've Forrester but he was injured when we signed him so I don't think we can really count that as bad luck (players that get injured can stay injured).

The injuries seem like a bit of an excuse when the facts are (a) the players who can still play don't seem good enough and (b) we either didn't sign enough decent players in the transfer window or we should have held back more cover instead of loaning out.


You're treating them as separate issues when really it's one issue exacerbated by another issue. Everyone fully fit then we won't have an issue and would be further up the table.

Fact is we have 3 player who can play centre back out injured so we are playing our 4th and 5th choice centre backs (Rawson may be higher but said 4th to get my point across). Unsurprisingly we arent great. I've said my piece that Defensively we were light anyway with 1st choice players out of position.

I'm told Forrester is a quality centre back and should shine in league 2, not been able to see for myself yet so jury is out.

I don't know about you but if I was a "quality" centre back for league 2 I don't think I would join a side and be 5th choice in a back 4 for centre back.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bear 73 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:16 pm

I can understand we have not got a winning, mentality when we havent won in the last 5 games, central defenders have bore the brunt of our injuries with 3 out of 5 missing.
What we can do is try to pick 3 forwards and 3 midfielders , as a club we are strong in both areas, , also with Quinn missing for 6 games, we are missing our most experienced players.
Rawson has plenty of league 2 experience, and Perch gave us a tested pairing, With 3 transfers failing , we also had Nartey coming in, so we had choices 4 central defenders available Rawson, Perch, Nartey, Hewitt, and Forrester being fit within 2 weeks, Here we stood after the window closed.
bleating about our bad luck, and playing the blame game, does not help, we are were we are, and it is going to be a uphill battle until we get bodies back.
We needed 3 points against Rochdale, with Orient away our next game, not knocking the draw but Clough has a mountain to climb
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby wardy12345 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:01 pm

we all know Gordon and Hewitt are about as much use as a flat tyre and rawson is like a slow puncture. there’s got to be a way of keeping a clean sheet. Maybe they need encouragement
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Vice President » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:08 pm

We definitely need to bring in a suitable 'free agent' centre-half (maybe even two, given the injury crisis) up until January.

Cloughie left us short in this position last season, but he got away with it because fortunately Perch, Rawson & Sweeney remained relatively injury free. Not so now. Priority number one is to plug this leaky defence and ensure sufficient coverage.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby chip63 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:15 pm

It's no good bringing in a player if they are not better than Hewitt, we have cover with Macca, Hawkins and Bowery.
It's Hewitt and Rawson for now and not much we can do other than support them (Clough included)
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bellwhiff » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:42 pm

wardy12345 wrote:we all know Gordon and Hewitt are about as much use as a flat tyre and rawson is like a slow puncture. there’s got to be a way of keeping a clean sheet. Maybe they need encouragement

They got tons of positive support on Saturday
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Vice President » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:06 pm

This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season.

We desperately need a decent right back. Try to sign free-agent Luke O'Neil. The vacuous right side of defence would be immediately sorted.

We desperately need a dominant central defender that can properly man-mark. Surely there is someone out there better than Rawson & Hewitt? (Why on earth did we sign Hewitt? - I knew it was a mistake from day one).

Two free agents that meet the above descriptions urgently required.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bobbystagsfan » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:19 pm

Vice President wrote:This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season.

We desperately need a decent right back. Try to sign free-agent Luke O'Neil. The vacuous right side of defence would be immediately sorted.

We desperately need a dominant central defender that can properly man-mark. Surely there is someone out there better than Rawson & Hewitt? (Why on earth did we sign Hewitt? - I knew it was a mistake from day one).

Two free agents that meet the above descriptions urgently required.


You make it out like there's a load of quality footballers waiting to be snapped up, shock for you sunshine there isn't. Clough said a couple weeks a go there's not anything out there that would vastly improve our defence. Even if we do sign a free agent, they aren't going to be match fit and guess what happens when you're not match fit? Injuries!

Hopefully Forrester makes us harder to beat when he's with us and we'll be on the hunt in January for a permanent signing
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby northern stag » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:48 pm

VP said ‘This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season’
You did see Neil Moore and Mark Lever didnt you ??
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bobbystagsfan » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:52 pm

northern stag wrote:VP said ‘This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season’
You did see Neil Moore and Mark Lever didnt you ??



Or our relegation season into non league.

I'd probably say there were some pairings in non league that were a lot worse too.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:55 pm

bobbystagsfan wrote:
Vice President wrote:This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season.

We desperately need a decent right back. Try to sign free-agent Luke O'Neil. The vacuous right side of defence would be immediately sorted.

We desperately need a dominant central defender that can properly man-mark. Surely there is someone out there better than Rawson & Hewitt? (Why on earth did we sign Hewitt? - I knew it was a mistake from day one).

Two free agents that meet the above descriptions urgently required.


You make it out like there's a load of quality footballers waiting to be snapped up, shock for you sunshine there isn't. Clough said a couple weeks a go there's not anything out there that would vastly improve our defence. Even if we do sign a free agent, they aren't going to be match fit and guess what happens when you're not match fit? Injuries!

Hopefully Forrester makes us harder to beat when he's with us and we'll be on the hunt in January for a permanent signing


Whilst I can see what you are saying here but it has a fatal flaw. Who will be available in January that’s any good without paying a fair sized fee?

I accept that any signing will need to get match fit but don’t think that will alter much when the window reopens. Anyone getting minutes in will be in their team’s plans and surely won’t be readily available. Maybe the sensible thing to do is sign someone now and get them fit as quickly as possible. The alternative appears to be to accept this is another growth year and just try to get the team through the season. If we do that, isn’t it a waste of money we have spent on the midfield and forwards.

Like it or not, if we want to go for it this year, JR has to invest a bit more or waste what he’s already spent.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bobbystagsfan » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:00 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
bobbystagsfan wrote:
Vice President wrote:This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season.

We desperately need a decent right back. Try to sign free-agent Luke O'Neil. The vacuous right side of defence would be immediately sorted.

We desperately need a dominant central defender that can properly man-mark. Surely there is someone out there better than Rawson & Hewitt? (Why on earth did we sign Hewitt? - I knew it was a mistake from day one).

Two free agents that meet the above descriptions urgently required.


You make it out like there's a load of quality footballers waiting to be snapped up, shock for you sunshine there isn't. Clough said a couple weeks a go there's not anything out there that would vastly improve our defence. Even if we do sign a free agent, they aren't going to be match fit and guess what happens when you're not match fit? Injuries!

Hopefully Forrester makes us harder to beat when he's with us and we'll be on the hunt in January for a permanent signing


Whilst I can see what you are saying here but it has a fatal flaw. Who will be available in January that’s any good without paying a fair sized fee?

I accept that any signing will need to get match fit but don’t think that will alter much when the window reopens. Anyone getting minutes in will be in their team’s plans and surely won’t be readily available. Maybe the sensible thing to do is sign someone now and get them fit as quickly as possible. The alternative appears to be to accept this is another growth year and just try to get the team through the season. If we do that, isn’t it a waste of money we have spent on the midfield and forwards.

Like it or not, if we want to go for it this year, JR has to invest a bit more or waste what he’s already spent.


I don't know, there could be someone wanting out who isn't getting game time at a L1 club who might want out. I imagine we will recall Menayese too.

Or by some miracle our defence actually improves and we'll be alright :lol:
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Johnny H » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:12 pm

Has NC, his scouting team or his negotiating team even tried to sign a true centre half before the last few days of the deadline ??

He wanted Naylor.....the Centre Midfield kingpin and captain of Portsmouth, NC said in an interview that he was signing Naylor to play CH.....another square peg in a round hole potentially.
He signed Hewitt.....who according to many (and his performances seem to show it) hasn't played many games at CH.

The only true centre half we seem to have been linked with is the ex Salford captain now at Oldham and that was in and around deadline day

Is that why we seem to have rushed into the deadline day signings....cos we haven't really looked at any CH's ??

It seemed we were keen on Nartey but Burnley seemed to want him to move here more than we wanted to rush into signing him !!
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby chris wilson » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:41 pm

Just having a little think about our defensive issues made me think about the way we set up. I'm not accounting for individual errors and goals conceded from set pieces but mostly all the goals we've conceded this season have been from balls into the box from wide channels. I think this all comes down to our shape just as much as the quality of our defence. Everyone knows we're going to set up with a tight compact midfield and the first thought of the opponents when they get the ball is to get it wide. Regardless of which combination of players we have in the midfield, none of them cover the ground quick enough to provide cover for either full back. This makes it even worse considering neither of our full backs strong point is defending. As soon as the opponents overload the flanks with overlapping full backs or runners from midfield then we're in trouble. Either the midfield can't get there quick enough which gives them a clear 2 on 1 or one or the centre halves are being pulled out of position leaving space in the box.

I think if we are to persist with our current set up in the middle of the park then we need to somehow go to a back 3 and play Macca and Gordon as wing backs which would provide them cover defensively.
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