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Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Martin Shaw » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:04 pm

"Four points clear as Lincoln are McCaffreyised", CHAD headline, April 1975
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby The One » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:11 pm

Stagdale wrote:I think Nigel is living off his reputation at the moment. He has made some disastrous mistakes so far as our manager such as :

1 Continually playing Gordon at full back. How many mistakes does he have to make before he is dropped? I feel very sorry for O’keefe who surely can’t be worse than Gordon.
2 very poor use of substitutes. Today was shambolic.
3 say what you like but he really did mess up in the transfer window. Please someone, tell me what does his brother do as head of recruitment? It is all very well saying he saved us money by getting Maynard and Cook off the payroll but this will be very shortsighted if we get relegated.
4 He wanted to be fair to them both and let them get first team football. His job is to do the best thing for MTFC and in my view he should have kept Cook and started him (like he does Reid) and he would have been happy. Certainly would contribute more than Reid who is probably one of the worst players I have seen pull on a Stag’s shirt and I have seen a few in my 60 years of supporting them! A manager of his experience should not have left us so short of bodies. With the fixture congestion he should have anticipated injuries, suspensions and fatigue.
4 I worry about his choice of players. He has extended the contacts of both Gordon and Charsley. Gordon speaks for himself match after match and Charsley just runs around a lot.
5 I don’t Know who coaches the team but there really is some shocking football played at the moment. In particular set pieces. They are an embarrassment. I am not suggesting we should score from every free kick or corner but we should be putting the opponent’s defenders under much more pressure than we do. Have we got a player who can actually strike a dead ball well? Do we practice these during the week?

I guess I will be berated on here for daring to criticise Nigel but I do think these comments are reasonable.


What a waste of ink
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Grendon Stag » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:22 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
bigalstag1 wrote:Part of it is down to him and club policy.He manages the team. The players can take most of the blame but he's not exempt.


In hindsight the January transfer window has been poor but the decisions made at the time were correct.

Clough could not have foreseen the injuries to Key players nor the total loss of form by Reid and Bowery who were both beginning to get their acts together at the time. He took a calculated risk to move two high wage earners off the bill fully expecting their replacement (Sarkic) to be an adequate replacement. He had no other remit than to stay in the league which I am sure he will achieve and the money saved will go towards next season’s promotion push. When he uses the saved money wisely, we will all sing his praises.


Replacing 2 strikers with 300+ goals between them with a winger who can play up top who's scored 3 goals in his EFL career isn't an adequate replacement no matter how you try and spin it.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:43 pm

The One wrote:
Stagdale wrote:I think Nigel is living off his reputation at the moment. He has made some disastrous mistakes so far as our manager such as :

1 Continually playing Gordon at full back. How many mistakes does he have to make before he is dropped? I feel very sorry for O’keefe who surely can’t be worse than Gordon.
2 very poor use of substitutes. Today was shambolic.
3 say what you like but he really did mess up in the transfer window. Please someone, tell me what does his brother do as head of recruitment? It is all very well saying he saved us money by getting Maynard and Cook off the payroll but this will be very shortsighted if we get relegated.
4 He wanted to be fair to them both and let them get first team football. His job is to do the best thing for MTFC and in my view he should have kept Cook and started him (like he does Reid) and he would have been happy. Certainly would contribute more than Reid who is probably one of the worst players I have seen pull on a Stag’s shirt and I have seen a few in my 60 years of supporting them! A manager of his experience should not have left us so short of bodies. With the fixture congestion he should have anticipated injuries, suspensions and fatigue.
4 I worry about his choice of players. He has extended the contacts of both Gordon and Charsley. Gordon speaks for himself match after match and Charsley just runs around a lot.
5 I don’t Know who coaches the team but there really is some shocking football played at the moment. In particular set pieces. They are an embarrassment. I am not suggesting we should score from every free kick or corner but we should be putting the opponent’s defenders under much more pressure than we do. Have we got a player who can actually strike a dead ball well? Do we practice these during the week?

I guess I will be berated on here for daring to criticise Nigel but I do think these comments are reasonable.


What a waste of ink


You only put 5 words so not a waste. That above you was spot on
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby ParisStag » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:43 am

No it wasn't. Gordon isn't bad. He is a real threat going forward, although agree that he's it's not working him being played out of position. Something must have gone off with O'Keeffe.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Rob » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:48 am

Grendon Stag wrote:
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
bigalstag1 wrote:Part of it is down to him and club policy.He manages the team. The players can take most of the blame but he's not exempt.


In hindsight the January transfer window has been poor but the decisions made at the time were correct.

Clough could not have foreseen the injuries to Key players nor the total loss of form by Reid and Bowery who were both beginning to get their acts together at the time. He took a calculated risk to move two high wage earners off the bill fully expecting their replacement (Sarkic) to be an adequate replacement. He had no other remit than to stay in the league which I am sure he will achieve and the money saved will go towards next season’s promotion push. When he uses the saved money wisely, we will all sing his praises.


Replacing 2 strikers with 300+ goals between them with a winger who can play up top who's scored 3 goals in his EFL career isn't an adequate replacement no matter how you try and spin it.


Quite right and it is not hindsight, many said at the time the squad was now painfully thin, particularly in attack and you only have to look back to the transfer thread in January to see how disappointed many Stags fans were. It was a big mistake not to replace them and to have all your eggs in one basket with the Burton lads, in fact, I'd say it was an amateur mistake. Lets just hope it does not cost us our league status because a win for Southend and we are just 6 points clear. It's absolutely nonsense, as I've said before, to say that they did this to save money, they tried to sign two players from Burton who I am sure would have had comparable wages to Cook and Maynard. As you say, it is now just spin to suggest that was done to save money, it absolutely was not.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby sw19stag » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:56 am

[i] I think Nigel is living off his reputation at the moment. He has made some disastrous mistakes so far as our manager such as :

1 Continually playing Gordon at full back. How many mistakes does he have to make before he is dropped? I feel very sorry for O’keefe who surely can’t be worse than Gordon.
2 very poor use of substitutes. Today was shambolic.
3 say what you like but he really did mess up in the transfer window. Please someone, tell me what does his brother do as head of recruitment? It is all very well saying he saved us money by getting Maynard and Cook off the payroll but this will be very shortsighted if we get relegated.
4 He wanted to be fair to them both and let them get first team football. His job is to do the best thing for MTFC and in my view he should have kept Cook and started him (like he does Reid) and he would have been happy. Certainly would contribute more than Reid who is probably one of the worst players I have seen pull on a Stag’s shirt and I have seen a few in my 60 years of supporting them! A manager of his experience should not have left us so short of bodies. With the fixture congestion he should have anticipated injuries, suspensions and fatigue.
4 I worry about his choice of players. He has extended the contacts of both Gordon and Charsley. Gordon speaks for himself match after match and Charsley just runs around a lot.
5 I don’t Know who coaches the team but there really is some shocking football played at the moment. In particular set pieces. They are an embarrassment. I am not suggesting we should score from every free kick or corner but we should be putting the opponent’s defenders under much more pressure than we do. Have we got a player who can actually strike a dead ball well? Do we practice these during the week?

I guess I will be berated on here for daring to criticise Nigel but I do think these comments are reasonable.
[/i]








Totally reasonable. I must say I have to agree with all your points.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby lifestags » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:27 am

Stagdale wrote:I think Nigel is living off his reputation at the moment. He has made some disastrous mistakes so far as our manager such as :

1 Continually playing Gordon at full back. How many mistakes does he have to make before he is dropped? I feel very sorry for O’keefe who surely can’t be worse than Gordon.
2 very poor use of substitutes. Today was shambolic.
3 say what you like but he really did mess up in the transfer window. Please someone, tell me what does his brother do as head of recruitment? It is all very well saying he saved us money by getting Maynard and Cook off the payroll but this will be very shortsighted if we get relegated.
4 He wanted to be fair to them both and let them get first team football. His job is to do the best thing for MTFC and in my view he should have kept Cook and started him (like he does Reid) and he would have been happy. Certainly would contribute more than Reid who is probably one of the worst players I have seen pull on a Stag’s shirt and I have seen a few in my 60 years of supporting them! A manager of his experience should not have left us so short of bodies. With the fixture congestion he should have anticipated injuries, suspensions and fatigue.
4 I worry about his choice of players. He has extended the contacts of both Gordon and Charsley. Gordon speaks for himself match after match and Charsley just runs around a lot.
5 I don’t Know who coaches the team but there really is some shocking football played at the moment. In particular set pieces. They are an embarrassment. I am not suggesting we should score from every free kick or corner but we should be putting the opponent’s defenders under much more pressure than we do. Have we got a player who can actually strike a dead ball well? Do we practice these during the week?

I guess I will be berated on here for daring to criticise Nigel but I do think these comments are reasonable.


Agree with all this.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Torrystag » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:45 am

Captain Cunno wrote:Love how folk Lose their head after every game on here.....
Nobody cares about this season from JR down to Jimmy who cuts the grass....
NC has done his job he's cut the massive wage bill down and miraculously garnered enough points for us to to stop up with lets face it with an awful team....

Stop procrastinating over games that matter not a jot...

NC is saying what he needs to keep the apple cart steady nothing more nothing less...

Ignore the results the rest of this season and wish August upon us in haste....


If we are not careful they may become games that matter more than we think
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Spiritater » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:25 am

Captain Cunno wrote:Love how folk Lose their head after every game on here.....
Nobody cares about this season from JR down to Jimmy who cuts the grass....
NC has done his job he's cut the massive wage bill down and miraculously garnered enough points for us to to stop up with lets face it with an awful team....

Stop procrastinating over games that matter not a jot...

NC is saying what he needs to keep the apple cart steady nothing more nothing less...

Ignore the results the rest of this season and wish August upon us in haste....

Glad you think we are safe. You must be doing the pre match team talk as the players seem to think so too judging by how they are playing for the opposition and threading their strikers in.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby victor A block » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:42 am

It's understandable that he can't come out and hang them out to dry .

He does say some strange things at times though . Like saying post match that Stone is a good kicker of the ball , when clearly he isn't . Really surprised he took so long on substitutions yesterday , particularly in bringing Clarke on when he admitted afterwards that Law was lost .
His decision on releasing strikers in January is well documented but in hindsight he I'm sure realises now the reliance on Bowery ( who has never been prolific ) and particularly Reid (enough said) has been a poor error of judgment. We may well just survive this season by scraping a couple of wins from somewhere and by reliance on our strongest midfield area , and he can turn around and say Job done, but it's going to be very close.
If survival has only ever been our ambition it would be interesting to know if that would have been the club plan had supporters been in the ground every week . Not sure it would have gone down well .
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Norman » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:00 am

Stagdale wrote:I think Nigel is living off his reputation at the moment. He has made some disastrous mistakes so far as our manager such as :

1 Continually playing Gordon at full back. How many mistakes does he have to make before he is dropped? I feel very sorry for O’keefe who surely can’t be worse than Gordon.
2 very poor use of substitutes. Today was shambolic.
3 say what you like but he really did mess up in the transfer window. Please someone, tell me what does his brother do as head of recruitment? It is all very well saying he saved us money by getting Maynard and Cook off the payroll but this will be very shortsighted if we get relegated.
4 He wanted to be fair to them both and let them get first team football. His job is to do the best thing for MTFC and in my view he should have kept Cook and started him (like he does Reid) and he would have been happy. Certainly would contribute more than Reid who is probably one of the worst players I have seen pull on a Stag’s shirt and I have seen a few in my 60 years of supporting them! A manager of his experience should not have left us so short of bodies. With the fixture congestion he should have anticipated injuries, suspensions and fatigue.
4 I worry about his choice of players. He has extended the contacts of both Gordon and Charsley. Gordon speaks for himself match after match and Charsley just runs around a lot.
5 I don’t Know who coaches the team but there really is some shocking football played at the moment. In particular set pieces. They are an embarrassment. I am not suggesting we should score from every free kick or corner but we should be putting the opponent’s defenders under much more pressure than we do. Have we got a player who can actually strike a dead ball well? Do we practice these during the week?

I guess I will be berated on here for daring to criticise Nigel but I do think these comments are reasonable.


Absolutely bang on !
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Norman » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:01 am

The One wrote:
Stagdale wrote:I think Nigel is living off his reputation at the moment. He has made some disastrous mistakes so far as our manager such as :

1 Continually playing Gordon at full back. How many mistakes does he have to make before he is dropped? I feel very sorry for O’keefe who surely can’t be worse than Gordon.
2 very poor use of substitutes. Today was shambolic.
3 say what you like but he really did mess up in the transfer window. Please someone, tell me what does his brother do as head of recruitment? It is all very well saying he saved us money by getting Maynard and Cook off the payroll but this will be very shortsighted if we get relegated.
4 He wanted to be fair to them both and let them get first team football. His job is to do the best thing for MTFC and in my view he should have kept Cook and started him (like he does Reid) and he would have been happy. Certainly would contribute more than Reid who is probably one of the worst players I have seen pull on a Stag’s shirt and I have seen a few in my 60 years of supporting them! A manager of his experience should not have left us so short of bodies. With the fixture congestion he should have anticipated injuries, suspensions and fatigue.
4 I worry about his choice of players. He has extended the contacts of both Gordon and Charsley. Gordon speaks for himself match after match and Charsley just runs around a lot.
5 I don’t Know who coaches the team but there really is some shocking football played at the moment. In particular set pieces. They are an embarrassment. I am not suggesting we should score from every free kick or corner but we should be putting the opponent’s defenders under much more pressure than we do. Have we got a player who can actually strike a dead ball well? Do we practice these during the week?

I guess I will be berated on here for daring to criticise Nigel but I do think these comments are reasonable.


What a waste of ink


Why is it ? some happy clappers just don’t like the truth !
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby I am Spartacus » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:16 am

Our Nigel has inherited possibly one of the shallowest talent pools in terms of a squad in history. 2 yrs, 2 terrible management appointments and 3 inept transfer windows took their toll before he arrived. Coupled with financially straightened and unprecedented times that we will hopefully never see the like of again. He is doing what his employers have wanted, as someone said previously, he is steadying the apple cart.

At the end of the transfer window he had the players, as we have now seen, playing above their abilities and the club’s strategy was based upon that. Players poor decision making and dropping off in form, so dramatically, neither he or those on here that dreamt of the play offs could see. No one in January expected this season to be ending with a whimper and whine rather than a bang. With hindsight things could have been done differently but that happens with ever decision made in life. The transfer window was a ‘sliding doors moment’ for the club and in effect Nigel has had his chance with Gwyneth Paltrow.

We are playing poorly, as frustrating and unwatchable this is, I think we have enough ‘in the tank’ to stay up.

Judge him, after the transfer window in August when he has sorted the wheat (not much from the chaff) from the chaff (lots of). Quite a few of the players we have now will, thankfully for them, never make the worst Stags players roll call as we have had the luxury of not seeing them in the flesh.

Judge him and his achievements in November when his side has had time to bed in and be his side, not when he is doing the best with an assembled collective of ‘not good enoughs’. Remember, with Easter in mind, he is not our messiah just a manager.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Amber Andy » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:27 am

Rob wrote:
Grendon Stag wrote:
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
bigalstag1 wrote:Part of it is down to him and club policy.He manages the team. The players can take most of the blame but he's not exempt.


In hindsight the January transfer window has been poor but the decisions made at the time were correct.

Clough could not have foreseen the injuries to Key players nor the total loss of form by Reid and Bowery who were both beginning to get their acts together at the time. He took a calculated risk to move two high wage earners off the bill fully expecting their replacement (Sarkic) to be an adequate replacement. He had no other remit than to stay in the league which I am sure he will achieve and the money saved will go towards next season’s promotion push. When he uses the saved money wisely, we will all sing his praises.


Replacing 2 strikers with 300+ goals between them with a winger who can play up top who's scored 3 goals in his EFL career isn't an adequate replacement no matter how you try and spin it.


Quite right and it is not hindsight, many said at the time the squad was now painfully thin, particularly in attack and you only have to look back to the transfer thread in January to see how disappointed many Stags fans were. It was a big mistake not to replace them and to have all your eggs in one basket with the Burton lads, in fact, I'd say it was an amateur mistake. Lets just hope it does not cost us our league status because a win for Southend and we are just 6 points clear. It's absolutely nonsense, as I've said before, to say that they did this to save money, they tried to sign two players from Burton who I am sure would have had comparable wages to Cook and Maynard. As you say, it is now just spin to suggest that was done to save money, it absolutely was not.
I think it was a money saving excercise.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby julianshatnasty » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:55 am

Captain Cunno wrote:Love how folk Lose their head after every game on here.....
Nobody cares about this season from JR down to Jimmy who cuts the grass....
NC has done his job he's cut the massive wage bill down and miraculously garnered enough points for us to to stop up with lets face it with an awful team....

Stop procrastinating over games that matter not a jot...

NC is saying what he needs to keep the apple cart steady nothing more nothing less...

Ignore the results the rest of this season and wish August upon us in haste....


Agreed
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Waggy » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:10 am

ParisStag wrote:No it wasn't. Gordon isn't bad. He is a real threat going forward, although agree that he's it's not working him being played out of position. Something must have gone off with O'Keeffe.


Threat to who? The only danger he will pose is when the crowd is back in and some kid risks losing his glasses in row k - garbage
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby cassellswasmagic » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:19 am

That’s most deflated I’ve seen Cloughie. Terrible errors in non threatening positions cost us time and time again. He alluded to the fact those players won’t be around for long, doing that every week. I still believe he’s the perfect management fit for us, and can’t wait to see who he brings in over the summer. Both those back passes are incredibly naive. I’d get rid of both of those players and a few others personally they’re nowhere near it.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby PaulG » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:28 am

I've assumed all along that the decision to off-load our two high-earning strikers was taken at Board level, not by Nigel Clough, who was perhaps asked if he could manage to see the season out without them. I've also assumed that there was a veto on any permanent signings in the January window (with the exception of Lapslie, who was already in the door). We know that the manager's brief is simply to keep us in the League this season, and kick on next season, when the crowds will be back, and money coming in. All of that makes sense, given that Covid has cut off almost all streams of income. Clough clearly did have plans A, B and C, but one loan signing fell through at the last minute, another has been permanently injured, as has the youngster already on the books. That's just bad luck, not bad planning. At the time those decisions were being made, the team was playing well, scoring goals and picking up points; probably just enough points. I shall be relieved when we scrape another four or five points, but assuming we do, then from the Radfords' point of view, it's mission accomplished with the least possible strain on the Club's finances. Just as a rider, I would suggest that Gordon, who drives you to despair at full back, may well turn out to be a very handy player as soon as his activities are restricted to further up the pitch, which may be what Clough has in mind.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Grendon Stag » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:53 am

PaulG wrote:I've assumed all along that the decision to off-load our two high-earning strikers was taken at Board level, not by Nigel Clough, who was perhaps asked if he could manage to see the season out without them. I've also assumed that there was a veto on any permanent signings in the January window (with the exception of Lapslie, who was already in the door). We know that the manager's brief is simply to keep us in the League this season, and kick on next season, when the crowds will be back, and money coming in. All of that makes sense, given that Covid has cut off almost all streams of income. Clough clearly did have plans A, B and C, but one loan signing fell through at the last minute, another has been permanently injured, as has the youngster already on the books. That's just bad luck, not bad planning. At the time those decisions were being made, the team was playing well, scoring goals and picking up points; probably just enough points. I shall be relieved when we scrape another four or five points, but assuming we do, then from the Radfords' point of view, it's mission accomplished with the least possible strain on the Club's finances. Just as a rider, I would suggest that Gordon, who drives you to despair at full back, may well turn out to be a very handy player as soon as his activities are restricted to further up the pitch, which may be what Clough has in mind.


All very plausible Paul until you read Hasselbaink's column in the Derbyshire Times where he explains Akins and Brayford were going to Mansfield but it was pulled at the last minute because Burton didn't get their replacements signed. Now forgive me but neither would be on massive wages at Burton but wouldn't have been on peanuts either
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby victor A block » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:30 pm

Martin Shaw wrote:


Even in the slow-mo this shows how hesitant Stone was. His starting position was too far back, even though he coudnt have imagined Reid's kamikaze passback.

75% Reid error.
25% Stone.

I don't want to be seeing much of either name on the team sheet next season.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:40 pm

victor A block wrote:
Martin Shaw wrote:


Sadly, even in the slow-mo this shows how hesitant Stone was. His starting position was too far back also.

75% Reid error.
25% Stone


Quite an interesting viewpoint. If you look on the other thread there is a slow motion review of the game from Orient’s point of view. Look at the mistake by Gordon leading up to the corner and goal. Stone takes up exactly the same position but makes the save for which he received all of the plaudits. Having been successful once he does it again but the goal scorer had learnt his lesson and went the other side. This is clearly demonstrated by behind the goals cameras.

Can I also refer you to a debate on here following the Crawley game when Stech was heavily criticised for coming out of his goal and ending up in no man’s land.

It would appear keepers just can’t win unless they pull off magnificent saves every time.
Who are you calling pedantic? I resemble that remark!
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby MTFCMusings » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:54 pm

I think the difference is where the attacker picks up the back pass. The thread I posted a while ago from a goalkeeping analyst said goalkeepers should not engage if the attacker is more than 13 yards out. For the first one Johnson gets to the ball on the edge of the box before steadying himself and shooting when about 14 yards out. Stone narrows the angle but doesn’t rush out.

For the second, the ball is pretty much level with the penalty spot when Johnson reaches it so Stone has to come out and engage. There was hesitation there though it’s clear to see.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:03 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:I think the difference is where the attacker picks up the back pass. The thread I posted a while ago from a goalkeeping analyst said goalkeepers should not engage if the attacker is more than 13 yards out. For the first one Johnson gets to the ball on the edge of the box before steadying himself and shooting when about 14 yards out. Stone narrows the angle but doesn’t rush out.

For the second, the ball is pretty much level with the penalty spot when Johnson reaches it so Stone has to come out and engage. There was hesitation there though it’s clear to see.


Yes there is hesitation in both incidents Mussy. And to be fair, maybe the angle Johnson arrives at is also different in the two examples with the second scenario taking him naturally to Stone’s right side. Maybe if he hadn’t hesitated the gap to aim at would have been even bigger.
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Re: Nigel Clough; Leyton Orient post match

Postby yellowstagsfan » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:33 pm

No use looking at Stone. The defenders shouldn't sell him short in the first place
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