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weak bench cost us 3 points

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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Dan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:06 pm

part time pete wrote:
Dan wrote:
Upper West wrote:I do not think it is the strength of the bench but the timing of the substitutions.

I have thought for a long time that a substitution late in the game should only be made in the case of injury. 2 reasons for this. Firstly it takes a while for a sub to get into the game. Secondly if the opposition is pushing for a goal, it gives them chance to have a breather before making a final push.

If you look at any match where a goal has been scored late on there is a good chance that a substitution was made by the opposition a few minutes earlier.

Stags this season

Orient A Sub 90 conceded 92
Newport A sub 84 conceded 88
Bolton A sub 86 conceded 90
Colchester H sub 84 conceded 85
Cheltenham (cup) A sub 108 conceded 110
Colchester A sub 80 conceded 89
Bolton H sub 83 conceded 85


Imagine where we’d be in the table if we hadn’t made any of those changes!


But three of those games, Clough was not even here.


I know mate it was just an observation. It could be a fitness issue or mental issue as it’s happened all season under two managers.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby PEAR CIDER » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:19 pm

Dan wrote:
part time pete wrote:
Dan wrote:
Upper West wrote:I do not think it is the strength of the bench but the timing of the substitutions.

I have thought for a long time that a substitution late in the game should only be made in the case of injury. 2 reasons for this. Firstly it takes a while for a sub to get into the game. Secondly if the opposition is pushing for a goal, it gives them chance to have a breather before making a final push.

If you look at any match where a goal has been scored late on there is a good chance that a substitution was made by the opposition a few minutes earlier.

Stags this season

Orient A Sub 90 conceded 92
Newport A sub 84 conceded 88
Bolton A sub 86 conceded 90
Colchester H sub 84 conceded 85
Cheltenham (cup) A sub 108 conceded 110
Colchester A sub 80 conceded 89
Bolton H sub 83 conceded 85


Imagine where we’d be in the table if we hadn’t made any of those changes!


But three of those games, Clough was not even here.


I know mate it was just an observation. It could be a fitness issue or mental issue as it’s happened all season under two managers.


if it was fitness, you could argue we need to make subs. We cannot make subs as we have a weak bench. Therefore leaving players on who is getting extremely tired has cost us 3 points, as are bench isn't strong enough to replace them.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Dan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:28 pm

PEAR CIDER wrote:
Dan wrote:
part time pete wrote:
Dan wrote:
Upper West wrote:I do not think it is the strength of the bench but the timing of the substitutions.

I have thought for a long time that a substitution late in the game should only be made in the case of injury. 2 reasons for this. Firstly it takes a while for a sub to get into the game. Secondly if the opposition is pushing for a goal, it gives them chance to have a breather before making a final push.

If you look at any match where a goal has been scored late on there is a good chance that a substitution was made by the opposition a few minutes earlier.

Stags this season

Orient A Sub 90 conceded 92
Newport A sub 84 conceded 88
Bolton A sub 86 conceded 90
Colchester H sub 84 conceded 85
Cheltenham (cup) A sub 108 conceded 110
Colchester A sub 80 conceded 89
Bolton H sub 83 conceded 85


Imagine where we’d be in the table if we hadn’t made any of those changes!


But three of those games, Clough was not even here.


I know mate it was just an observation. It could be a fitness issue or mental issue as it’s happened all season under two managers.


if it was fitness, you could argue we need to make subs. We cannot make subs as we have a weak bench. Therefore leaving players on who is getting extremely tired has cost us 3 points, as are bench isn't strong enough to replace them.


You could also argue that playing games should help their fitness so it could be more a mental issue. We can make subs it's just the timing of them that we've got wrong like we did on Tuesday night. I don't think anyone is disputing that we could have a stronger bench but even when we did the manager didn't really use them much.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Amber Andy » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:31 pm

oldweststander wrote:
bobbystagsfan wrote:
Gruff wrote:Anybody remember about 4 months ago when this lot wouldn't have scored a goal? We had 2 non-league (at best) striker in Bowery and Reid, Rawson was one of the worst signings we'd made and George Maris didn't deserve a shirt.

If only Cloughie had made sure Burton signed the players they wanted in the transfer window, eh? Why didn't he buy some no hopers to have a stronger bench in January.

We lost a game. We'll learn from it.

It's Project Survival this year, and rebuild for next season. Win a few games and the expectations in this board go through the roof.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Great post.

We've been spoiled by Nigel, gone from not being able to buy a win to not losing from 8 games in a row. Nige has set the bar high now for the stagsnet mob


Doesn't change the fact that Nigel made the same mistake two matches in a row with his refusal to bring on fresh legs to match the opposition.

He did bring fresh legs on and we conceded two goals !
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Spiritater » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:45 pm

Dan wrote:
Upper West wrote:I do not think it is the strength of the bench but the timing of the substitutions.

I have thought for a long time that a substitution late in the game should only be made in the case of injury. 2 reasons for this. Firstly it takes a while for a sub to get into the game. Secondly if the opposition is pushing for a goal, it gives them chance to have a breather before making a final push.

If you look at any match where a goal has been scored late on there is a good chance that a substitution was made by the opposition a few minutes earlier.

Stags this season

Orient A Sub 90 conceded 92
Newport A sub 84 conceded 88
Bolton A sub 86 conceded 90
Colchester H sub 84 conceded 85
Cheltenham (cup) A sub 108 conceded 110
Colchester A sub 80 conceded 89
Bolton H sub 83 conceded 85


Imagine where we’d be in the table if we hadn’t made any of those changes!

Just a quick look but from winning positions this season I think we've let something like 23 points slip through our fingers. Even half those saved and we'd be 4th.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby broomo » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:54 pm

Spiritater wrote:
Dan wrote:
Upper West wrote:I do not think it is the strength of the bench but the timing of the substitutions.

I have thought for a long time that a substitution late in the game should only be made in the case of injury. 2 reasons for this. Firstly it takes a while for a sub to get into the game. Secondly if the opposition is pushing for a goal, it gives them chance to have a breather before making a final push.

If you look at any match where a goal has been scored late on there is a good chance that a substitution was made by the opposition a few minutes earlier.

Stags this season

Orient A Sub 90 conceded 92
Newport A sub 84 conceded 88
Bolton A sub 86 conceded 90
Colchester H sub 84 conceded 85
Cheltenham (cup) A sub 108 conceded 110
Colchester A sub 80 conceded 89
Bolton H sub 83 conceded 85


Imagine where we’d be in the table if we hadn’t made any of those changes!

Just a quick look but from winning positions this season I think we've let something like 23 points slip through our fingers. Even half those saved and we'd be 4th.



Christ that is a hell of a lot. Any idea how many points we've picked up from losing positions?
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Spiritater » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:59 pm

Looks like 8
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Torrystag » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:12 pm

oldweststander wrote:
bobbystagsfan wrote:
Gruff wrote:Anybody remember about 4 months ago when this lot wouldn't have scored a goal? We had 2 non-league (at best) striker in Bowery and Reid, Rawson was one of the worst signings we'd made and George Maris didn't deserve a shirt.

If only Cloughie had made sure Burton signed the players they wanted in the transfer window, eh? Why didn't he buy some no hopers to have a stronger bench in January.

We lost a game. We'll learn from it.

It's Project Survival this year, and rebuild for next season. Win a few games and the expectations in this board go through the roof.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Great post.

We've been spoiled by Nigel, gone from not being able to buy a win to not losing from 8 games in a row. Nige has set the bar high now for the stagsnet mob


Doesn't change the fact that Nigel made the same mistake two matches in a row with his refusal to bring on fresh legs to match the opposition.

In your opinion , i prefer to trust nigel
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby bear 73 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm

Why are we obsessed with substitutions , some of us always think our best players are on the bench, some work some dont, how many knew Quinn was suffering from a knock,
We made a substitution bringing on a left sided player Benning to shore things up, i dont think that worked, or do we now get into the realms he should have brought so n so on
and 4 fans would have at least 3 difference of opinions. The bench is not strong enough, Clough happy to work with it.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby lifestags » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:00 pm

But he isn’t working with it if he’s not using it? He’s decided to not replace the players he lets go, so trust the lads you have the bench....

You could tell Quinn was raspberried, there was a situation were Reid was counter attacking and Quinn was running with him and decided to stop, Obviously he was struggling with a knock.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby chip63 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:15 pm

He didn't decide not to replace cook and Maynard he couldn't because of no players available.

Both cook and Maynard wanted to move because they didn't want to be on the bench.

You won't find many good strikers wishing to come here to sit on a bench.

We won't find much better than Sir Mal as cover for the left.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Upper West » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:39 pm

Going back quite a few days I am sure the late substitutions cost us the home game against Bristol City when they scored 3 late goals.
I recall Christie was causing havoc and got taken off.
I think if you looked at the results last season there were several late goals conceded after making a substitution.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby groundhoppingstag » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:27 pm

Upper West wrote:Going back quite a few days I am sure the late substitutions cost us the home game against Bristol City when they scored 3 late goals.
I recall Christie was causing havoc and got taken off.

We did have the worst defence in the country that season.
But bringing little Jervis on for Larkin didn't help the cause.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Dan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:24 pm

Watford have just made two substitutions in the 76th minute while 2-0 up. Derby scored less than a minute later while the Watford players were sorting out the formation etc. Sounds familiar....
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Dan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:30 pm

84th minute Derby hit the post, Watford all over the place now.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:37 pm

Or you could look at it that Derby bought on two more attackers to "go for it".

It works both ways ;)
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Richard Cranium » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:42 pm

Dan wrote:84th minute Derby hit the post, Watford all over the place now.


FT. Fresh legs pays off Watford get 3 points :D
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Dan » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:03 am

Parkinsons Perm wrote:Or you could look at it that Derby bought on two more attackers to "go for it".

It works both ways ;)


You could do if it was Derby who brought on the two players but it was Watford :lol:
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Dan » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:04 am

Richard Cranium wrote:
Dan wrote:84th minute Derby hit the post, Watford all over the place now.


FT. Fresh legs pays off Watford get 3 points :D


:lol: Only just. Derby hit the bar again and the keeper clawed one off the line. Even the commentators said how the subs had disrupted Watford. Just throwing it out there that making subs don’t always work.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Upper West » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:07 am

Looked up last season

Orient H sub 91 conceded 96 FS 2-3
Cambridge H sub 87 conceded 90 & 95 FS 2-3
Port Vale A sub 85 conceded 94 FS 2-2
Colchester H sub 84 conceded 87 FS 2-3
Shrewsbury A cup sub 89 conceded 97 FS 0-2
Northampton H sub 80,82 conceded 84 FS 1-1
Carlisle H sub 88 conceded 93 FS 2-2
Northampton A sub 87 conceded 95 FS 2-1

On the other side
Grimsby A opp sub 86 stags goal 96 1-0
Port Vale H opp sub 85 stags goal 93 2-2

9 points conceded after late subs but 3 points gained by opposition late subs

It was not a complete season last year.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:05 am

Dan wrote:
Parkinsons Perm wrote:Or you could look at it that Derby bought on two more attackers to "go for it".

It works both ways ;)


You could do if it was Derby who brought on the two players but it was Watford :lol:


So in the 58th minute Derby didn't bring on two attackers Jozwiak and Lee Gregory for two midfielders, are you sure you were watching?
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Dan » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:38 am

Parkinsons Perm wrote:
Dan wrote:
Parkinsons Perm wrote:Or you could look at it that Derby bought on two more attackers to "go for it".

It works both ways ;)


You could do if it was Derby who brought on the two players but it was Watford :lol:


So in the 58th minute Derby didn't bring on two attackers Jozwiak and Lee Gregory for two midfielders, are you sure you were watching?


Yes but what my point was is that late changes disrupt the team. They came on after 58 minutes and nothing happened. Watford brought theirs on late on and Derby scored immediately and it disrupted them, hence Derby scoring & hitting the woodwork twice & having one cleared off the line. So it wasn’t Derby’s changes that affected the game it was Watford’s and it nearly cost them the game like us on Wednesday night. Had Watford (& us) not made any changes then both teams see out the game and win.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby gazza1988 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:01 am

Looking at BBC page Derby's goal was an own goal. From a defender who played the whole match.

Look at our game. Bolton made 4 subs, 1 of which scored and got an assist. If they hadn't made the sub then that's 2 goals that Bolton wouldn't have got the way they did.

We subbed a midfielder for a left back and left the left back in midfield. We expected a sub to not only get up to speed with 7 minutes to go but get up to speed in a position he's not used to. Then we all wonder why he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes it disrupted us but in my opinion that's dies to the lateness and playing out of position.

If Quinn was knackered then Charsley, a central midfielder playing on the right, could have moved into midfield and bring on a right sided player like Sinclair. While they are pushing for their goal it give us chance to counter with Reid and Sinclair.

The answer is not to never make subs, the answer is to bring in fresh legs before we pick up more injuries.

As I said on another post we've got a situation where we have players who have played pretty much every minute of every game recently and others who haven't played in weeks.

Corey O'Keeffe, last game was the cup game on 10th Jan. What's he going to be up to speed with if he gets a game. He's not match fit so will tire quicker. You can't replicate proper matches in training.
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby broomo » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:36 am

So you'd bring Sinclair on?

When was his last game and why would he get up to speed faster than O'Keefe?
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Re: weak bench cost us 3 points

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:23 am

broomo wrote:So you'd bring Sinclair on?

When was his last game and why would he get up to speed faster than O'Keefe?


Anyone but Benning out of position. He's always been a weak "dangle a leg out" defender in his correct position.
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