Alistair Smith joins Altrincham permanently

[jpstags]

As I said, we are not a club that gives youth a chance, we haven't been since Dearden had to. It's a shame and I am not sure what the purpose of our Academy is, but for as long as the attitudes of a few on here are shared by the club it is unlikely we will see a youth team product become a first team regular, which I find very sad. I hope Alastair proves you r comes througwrong, I think he will, as "found his level at Halifax" Gregory did

Gregory is just one, if a player comes through that is good enough he will get in the first team. On the flip side wI hear we have a couple of lads in the academy that are attracting attention from Premier lubs even before they've reached the youth team.

[bellwhiff]

We don’t give the youth a chance recently. Not since the Bappa and Lawrence years.

It goes further back. Robbie Cooke anyone ?

[Tippy Tappy Football]

The number of young lads who make it back into the football league is a very small percentage Rob. We could go through a huge list of young players released by the Stags from the 70s onwards. One of them made it back this season but it took him around 10 years - Warren Burrell at Harrogate.

Lee Gregory is a different case because we were not in the EFL. We were a mid table side in the Conference Premier. Halifax were in Northern Premier League Division One North. Holdsworth had allowed Lee Gregory to go out on loan and he helped them win promotion. He did not want to come back to the Stags so JR agreed to sell him for a nominal transfer fee plus a 25% sell on clause. Lee Gregory was also a Sheffield United academy player who had been released and then signed by Staveley Miners Welfare.

[Sandy Pate Best Stag]

Only outstanding youth gets a chance in today’s game and that is just a fact of life. Fans and indeed owners usually want instant success and don’t appreciate stagnation. Ours is an ambitious club with our sights firmly fixed on promotion so unfortunately we don’t have the capacity to develop average players.

We have attempted to address this by loaning players lower down the pyramid so they can get the game time to develop. Sometimes it works others it doesn’t but if we want to gain promotion we simply can’t put unbloodied youngsters into our first team on a regular basis. This wasn’t Alistair's first loan period but unfortunately he simply hasn’t developed enough at this stage of his career. The club has given him opportunities which haven’t worked so the best option for Alistair himself is to move and try elsewhere. That is actually the sign of a caring and responsible club and keeping him here on low wages simply wouldn’t be fair to the lad.

[yorkstag]

I don’t understand fully how academies are funded but purely on a value for money basis I wonder if it’s worth it?
Brentford scrapped their academy and they seem to be doing ok. It’s a massive dilemna for clubs such as ours.

[Tippy Tappy Football]

£150,000 of funding for the academy comes from the Premier League. The amount of funding you receive depends upon whether you are Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 4 etc. I think the Stags received £150,000 Premier League funding for a Cat 4 academy but that will increase this season to £430,000 for a Cat 3 academy. Crewe and Col U received £716,000 for their Cat 2 academies. Cat 1 academies received £1,160,000.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1939288

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... d-Town.pdf

[wardy12345]

What are the different categories what’s the difference between them

[MTFCMAD]

What are the different categories what’s the difference between them

Cat 4 only get funding for players the age of 16-18 yesrs of age (under 18 team basically what you see enter fa youth cup and play against simialr football league youth academys in league format) you basically get the left overs of what other academys have released who might be good but are deemed to not have what it takes to become professionals.

Cat 3 you get funding for age groups 9 to 18. You can sign players from 9 years of age and coach them so many times a week (this is where we will start seeing football league olayers come through, players who have had academy coaching since a young age and players we will be able to stop getting poached). This is the catagory the clubs only just achieved. These players will ve playing elite academies of a similar nature from the football league.

Cat 2 basically more funding and you get funding for a u21 development team too so you can hold onto young players for longer.

Cat 1 is your prem teams who enter there u23 teams into the EFL trophy.

The academy structure now specially is focused more on development of players rather than winning games. When we won the title 3 seasons running we all thought it was brilliant but the players in them teams never actually developed towards being football league players as they were not improving there weaknesses juast playing to there strengths on being a more physical and matured team.

There is evidence that the academy are improving the quality of players that they are producing.compared to 3 years ago players like Danny Fletcher, Joe Fitzpatrick and Tyler Blake weren’t even getting chances at conference north/south level. Now we have our youth graduates signing professionally with teams only 8 or 9 places below us in the league or getting loan deals in the conference (would love to see jimmy getting more game time but what bodes well for him is he’s at a big non league club who at the very least expect to challenge for top 3 and is scoring at a good ratio when picked and no matter what anyone says is getting more game time there than he would here).

If this trend continues it won’t be long before we start seeing players promoted from the youth team to getting first team football.

We had Keaton Ward transfer to Barnsley who I thought had he stayed at Mansfield could of been one of first to compete for a first team spot. Would of been good competition for George Maris.

[Tippy Tappy Football]

I think Keaton Ward's time at Barnsley may have come to an end. He has said thank you to the club and that he needs a new challenge in men's football. He has joined Ilkeston Town in the Northern Premier League on loan for the rest of the season. It could be bad timing because the Step 3 and Step 4 seasons could be terminated. The FA is asking the league for their views.

https://www.barnsleyfc.co.uk/news/2020/ ... ward-loan/

[MTFCMAD]

I think Keaton Ward's time at Barnsley may have come to an end. He has said thank you the club and that he needs a new challenge in men's football. He has joined Ilkeston Town in the Northern Premier League on loan for the rest of the season. It could be bad timing because the Step 3 and Step 4 seasons could be terminated. The FA is asking the league for their views.

https://www.barnsleyfc.co.uk/news/2020/ ... ward-loan/

Shame that is thought he was a really good prospect....one I think his development would of been better staying here and getting into a first team environment than a under 23 development environment that he got at Barnsley away from his home comforts.

[Rob]

£150,000 of funding for the academy comes from the Premier League. The amount of funding you receive depends upon whether you are Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 4 etc. I think the Stags received £150,000 Premier League funding for a Cat 4 academy but that will increase this season to £430,000 for a Cat 3 academy. Crewe and Col U received £716,000 for their Cat 2 academies. Cat 1 academies received £1,160,000.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1939288

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... d-Town.pdf

Do you know how much it costs to run the Academy? Obviously the facilities are also 1st team training HQ so not all costs are just for the benefit of the youth structure, but we have not had a single player graduate to become a regular in the first team in 20 years so you do have to ask the question that if it is costing the club a lot of money is it really worth it? If the club is able to cover the costs within the grant then fair enough, but it is extremely disappointing when you see other clubs produce their own talent and we are producing virtually nothing.

Smith is clearly one of the best we have produced given he is a starter in a top 5 National League side, no other youth team graduate is stating regularly at that level as far as I'm aware, though of course Jimmy Knowles has made the odd start for County, generally he is a sub.

[MTFCMAD]

£150,000 of funding for the academy comes from the Premier League. The amount of funding you receive depends upon whether you are Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 4 etc. I think the Stags received £150,000 Premier League funding for a Cat 4 academy but that will increase this season to £430,000 for a Cat 3 academy. Crewe and Col U received £716,000 for their Cat 2 academies. Cat 1 academies received £1,160,000.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1939288

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... d-Town.pdf

Do you know how much it costs to run the Academy? Obviously the facilities are also 1st team training HQ so not all costs are just for the benefit of the youth structure, but we have not had a single player graduate to become a regular in the first team in 20 years so you do have to ask the question that if it is costing the club a lot of money is it really worth it? If the club is able to cover the costs within the grant then fair enough, but it is extremely disappointing when you see other clubs produce their own talent and we are producing virtually nothing.

Smith is clearly one of the best we have produced given he is a starter in a top 5 National League side, no other youth team graduate is stating regularly at that level as far as I'm aware, though of course Jimmy Knowles has made the odd start for County, generally he is a sub.

Last player produced was Tom Naylor that was 10ish years ago and not 20 as you say. Also we totally scrapped our academy system at one point and are having to start again. It as only jist got back to a comparable state that it was in before the club was relegated to non league.

Steve Hymas said that the academy is self sufficient so by that i take it no money from the first team is used to help fund the youth team.

Probably best getting facts together first than criticising without prior correct information.

[MTFCMusings]

I think the last player that became a semi regular for a season and a half was Jack Thomas.

I’ve not seen anything to suggest Smith is as good as Jack was for that first spell he had in the team.

[MTFCMAD]

I think the last player that became a semi regular for a season and a half was Jack Thomas.

I’ve not seen anything to suggest Smith is as good as Jack was for that first spell he had in the team.

Jack Thomas had a purple patch of 7 or 8 games in a really poor team but never really cemented his place in the centre of midfield.

Smith seems to have done this at Alta and looks to be a firm fans favourite.

Smith could of probably done with this loan happening at the start of last season and it being constant football for at least 6 months for him then possible carrying his form into us if he was ever going to break into the Stags midfield.

Let s face it the lads never really had a run of games in a row except for a successful loan spell At Loughborough when he was 18 and probably too early for a considered run of games in the Mansfield midfield.

[Tippy Tappy Football]

Cat 3 you get funding for age groups 9 to 18. You can sign players from 9 years of age and coach them so many times a week (this is where we will start seeing football league players come through, players who have had academy coaching since a young age and players we will be able to stop getting poached).

Academy players can still be poached until they sign a professional contract. The amount of compensation is also decided by a fixed formula. You receive more money if you have Cat 2 status. Peterborough have just had to sell a 13 year old goalkeeper to Aston Villa for £100,000.

"Peterborough United have sold their highly-rated 13 year-old goalkeeper Sam Proctor to Premier League Aston Villa. It’s understood Posh have received the maximum permitted £100k for Proctor. This will rise to £150k if Proctor signs a professional deal at Villa Park. Posh would have received a bigger fee if they had been confirmed as an Academy 2 centre. That should happen in 2021. Proctor, who hails from Boston, has been at the Posh Academy since he was eight. He was originally an outfield player. He was selected to attend an England Under 15 training camp at St George’s Park between December 19/21."

This is further evidence of the fact that Premier League and top Championship clubs can just hoover up and stockpile all the best youth prospects. The vast majority of these will end up being released and having to drop down the leagues. I bought an Arsenal programme a few seasons ago on a visit to the Emirates Stadium and there were over 100 players listed in the first team, Premier League 2, U21, U20, U19, U18 squads.

[MTFCMAD]

Cat 3 you get funding for age groups 9 to 18. You can sign players from 9 years of age and coach them so many times a week (this is where we will start seeing football league players come through, players who have had academy coaching since a young age and players we will be able to stop getting poached).

Academy players can still be poached until they sign a professional contract. The amount of compensation is also decided by a fixed formula. You receive more money if you have Cat 2 status. Peterborough have just had to sell a 13 year old goalkeeper to Aston Villa for £100,000.

"Peterborough United have sold their highly-rated 13 year-old goalkeeper Sam Proctor to Premier League Aston Villa. It’s understood Posh have received the maximum permitted £100k for Proctor. This will rise to £150k if Proctor signs a professional deal at Villa Park. Posh would have received a bigger fee if they had been confirmed as an Academy 2 centre. That should happen in 2021. Proctor, who hails from Boston, has been at the Posh Academy since he was eight. He was originally an outfield player. He was selected to attend an England Under 15 training camp at St George’s Park between December 19/21."

This is further evidence of the fact that Premier League and top Championship clubs can just hoover up and stockpile all the best youth prospects. The vast majority of these will end up being released and having to drop down the leagues. I bought an Arsenal programme a few seasons ago on a visit to the Emirates Stadium and there were over 100 players listed in the first team, Premier League 2, U21, U20, U19, U18 squads.

Yes they can still be bought but in a cat 4 they can move for nothing.

One of the biggest problems in EPPP is it favours the bigger academies. There should definitely be a limit on how many players you can stockpile.

One good thing though is there have been more cases now of players in Mansfield’s 10-14 age groups refusing to move to the bigger academies as they are getting what they want from us and see no need in travelling 3 hours a night twice a week. We’ve got players who have refused the likes of Forest, Leeds, Man City and Leicester to stay with us and we are also now mopping up all the players what County and chesterfield once had.

[Tippy Tappy Football]

I think the last player that became a semi regular for a season and a half was Jack Thomas

Jack Thomas is at Ilkeston Town as well. The Ilkeston manager, Martin Carruthers, used to be at Basford United and it looks like he's signed quite a few former Basford players.

Kole Lambert is also there who played really well for Basford in a game I watched a few seasons ago. He came on as a 17 year old sub and helped win a penalty and scored two goals in a 6-0 win against Matlock Town. I said after the game that the Stags should sign him up but he was signed soon after by Norwich City.

[MTFCMAD]

I think the last player that became a semi regular for a season and a half was Jack Thomas

Jack Thomas is at Ilkeston Town as well. The Ilkeston manager, Martin Carruthers, used to be at Basford United and it looks like he's signed quite a few former Basford players.

Kole Lambert is also there who played really well for Basford in a game I watched a few seasons ago. He came on as a 17 year old sub and helped win a penalty and scored two goals in a 6-0 win against Matlock Town. I said after the game that the Stags should sign him up but he was signed soon after by Norwich City.

I remember that...was that when Hakeem was n loan at them ?

[Sandy Pate Best Stag]

Smith was not one of our better players. He has consistently failed to impress during his time on the pitch.

The last game he played for us (Scunthorpe in the silly trophy) was probably his best in a stag’s shirt but still contained a number of errors which could have led to opposition goals. This was no doubt a game that Nigel gave him so he could impress and the result was him going out on loan and then a free transfer.

He may have improved at a lower level but there is no place for him in our squad and the manager obviously thinks he has better players at his disposal.

I will trust our very experienced manager’s judgement over someone who consistently shows he knows little about what makes a good player and yearns for the return of a double failure.

[Tippy Tappy Football]

I remember that...was that when Hakeem was n loan at them ?

Yes. Zayn Hakeem played for Basford and Craig Westcarr played for Matlock.

I think Zayn is now at Coleshill Town.

[bobbystagsfan]

Remember when Hymas threw his dummy out because Flitcroft didn't play Hakeem? Yeah we know the reason why now

[Vice President]

You can't compare the club now with the club in Dearden's day. For two reasons:

(1) The club is now much more ambitious and is invested in 'project promotion' - and that is why we have tried to source 'better' players rather than rely on youth players.

(2) We happened to have had some very talented youth players back in 2000. We haven't been blessed with the same quality of youth players since then. It is not necessarily for the want of trying - these things just happen. The same can also be said of Man Utd. They haven't been able to recreate the great youth crop that they had back then either.

Over the last 20 years, with a couple of exceptions, our youth players haven't been good enough for the first team and quite rightly have not been selected.

[Rob]

I think the last player that became a semi regular for a season and a half was Jack Thomas.

I’ve not seen anything to suggest Smith is as good as Jack was for that first spell he had in the team.

Where is Jack now? What suggests Smith is better is the level he is currently playing. A lot of unsubstantiated rhetoric on here, plus point scoring from a sad old man, but the bottom line is all I want to see is our youth system bringing in players for the first team squad, not bringing them on for National League sides. I think it was worth keeping Smith on loan at Alty, given how well he has done there, and looking at him over the summer. If the Academy is not costing us money, then fine, if it is, then we need to see some sort of end product for the investment. JR is not going to bankroll the club forever and when he moves on we need a thriving youth set up to protect the future of our club.

[gazza1988]

We can have the right pathway at the club but it's up to the youth teamers to walk the pathway. It's not a simple pathway. There are challenges along the way.

It's not enough to have good physical and/or technical stats, you've got to have the right mentality. Its generally the players with the right balance that "make it".

There's a few clubs in the league who have scrapped their youth system. However those that have kept it can have 18 16/17/18 year olds each all wanting a pro contract. That's easily over 1500 players in the football league/prem all wanting a deal somewhere. Either they are released or offered a pro deal at their club. We pick up some of our youngsters at exit trials from clubs like forest and Derby.

We aren't a great prospect for youngsters because fail here then you're in non league with a slim chance of returning to a fully professional league. Let's be honest here quite a few of the youngsters are here to make it and not necessarily because they always dreamed of playing at field mill.

Some are also here because they think they have a easier/better chance of making it here because its a lower standard. This ties into mindset, its not the right mentality to have.

[gazza1988]

I think the last player that became a semi regular for a season and a half was Jack Thomas.

I’ve not seen anything to suggest Smith is as good as Jack was for that first spell he had in the team.

Where is Jack now? What suggests Smith is better is the level he is currently playing. A lot of unsubstantiated rhetoric on here, plus point scoring from a sad old man, but the bottom line is all I want to see is our youth system bringing in players for the first team squad, not bringing them on for National League sides. I think it was worth keeping Smith on loan at Alty, given how well he has done there, and looking at him over the summer. If the Academy is not costing us money, then fine, if it is, then we need to see some sort of end product for the investment. JR is not going to bankroll the club forever and when he moves on we need a thriving youth set up to protect the future of our club.

Rob, how soon do you want this to happen?

We were category 4 and only achieved category 3 in the summer.

The main difference between the 2 is a category 4 model is late development, so u17 and over. Category 3 and above is from u9 onwards. Its players through these age groups who generally do better in the long run. Our youth teamers are cast offs from category 3, 2 or 1 Academies who are willing to commute here. Some are from lower down, like Jason Law but not many.