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Cabbage patch

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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby I am Spartacus » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:21 pm

The problem with the drains, from Johno is more associated with the Sandy Pate Bar. Either the drainage was laid incorrectly last time, connecting onto the main outfall or this is a smokescreen.

The pitch in front of the West Stand has always held water, irrespective of the grounds man is.

In reality, with the fixtures mounting up and the pitch not getting chance to dry out in between fixtures, the sensible thing has been done saving the playing surface, delaying the game until reinforcements can be found (hopefully), giving the players a rest and hopefully playing the game when we can get in to watch.

They would have called in a local official, possibly Dudley or Plowright, asked them to make an early assessment to prevent Salford and the match officials travelling. They decision would have been made there and then with ‘input from the club walking alongside the official as he tries to get the ball to roll on the pitch’.

A couple of phone calls later and it is off. Common sense prevails and we all get to watch ‘A Bridge too Far’ this evening.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Sedgwick » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:37 pm

Does anyone know what the official rule is with playing somewhere else?

I know it never happens but with there being no fans couldn't we use the training ground?
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Dan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:54 pm

Sedgwick wrote:Does anyone know what the official rule is with playing somewhere else?

I know it never happens but with there being no fans couldn't we use the training ground?


You have to submit a place to play your games to the FA/EFL. You can’t change it unless they agree to it which is why a lot of times cup games are refused when the smaller team wants to cash in by moving somewhere else.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:05 pm

The EFL Rules allow a club to move its ground on a temporary or permanent basis subject to the written consent of the EFL Board. It's possibly something that the EFL Board might consider if a club was struggling to complete its fixtures due to pitch problems and no crowds were still allowed in grounds. They would probably suggest though that the games be played at another EFL football stadium.

The EFL allowed Harrogate to play home games at Doncaster Rovers at the start of the season when their new grass pitch was not ready.

EFL Rules

13 Registration of Ground

13.1 The dimension of the field of play for all League organised matches shall be as follows:

Maximum length 120yds (110 metres)
Minimum length 110yds (100 metres)

Maximum width 80yds (75 metres)
Minimum width 70yds (64 metres)

13.2 Clubs must register their pitch dimensions with The League prior to the start of each Season. It will be misconduct on the part of a Club to alter its pitch dimensions during a Season without the prior written consent of The League, which consent will only be given in exceptional circumstances. The League may at any time require a Club to submit a report from a qualified independent source certifying the pitch dimensions.

13.5 Each Club shall register its ground with The League and no Club shall remove to another ground (whether on a temporary or a permanent basis) without first obtaining the written consent of the Board, such consent not to be unreasonably withheld and the Board shall be entitled, if granting consent, to impose such conditions as it deems appropriate in all the circumstances.

13.6 In considering whether to give any consent to a permanent relocation, the Board shall have regard to all the circumstances of the case (including, but not limited to the factors set out in this Regulation 13.6) and shall not grant consent unless it is reasonably satisfied that such consent:

13.6.1 would be consistent with the objects of The League as set out in the Memorandum of Association;

13.6.2 would be appropriate having in mind the relationship (if any) between the locality with which by its name or otherwise the applicant Club is traditionally associated and that in which such Club proposes to establish its ground;

13.6.3 would not to any material extent adversely affect such Club’s Officials, players, supporters, shareholders, sponsors and others having an interest in its activities;

13.6.4 would not have a material adverse effect on visiting Clubs;

13.6.5 would not to any material extent adversely affect Clubs having their registered grounds in the immediate vicinity of the proposed location; and

13.6.6 would enhance the reputation of The League and promote the game of association football generally.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby bellwhiff » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:25 pm

MTFCMAD wrote:
bellwhiff wrote:Why weren’t the covers on ?


How do you know they weren’t ?


Were they ?
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby part time pete » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:38 pm

Frost covers do not project the ground from rain or melting snow.

I think we only have frost covers and not rain covers.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby bellwhiff » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:47 pm

part time pete wrote:Frost covers do not project the ground from rain or melting snow.

I think we only have frost covers and not rain covers.

Really? Bearing the state of the surface, I’d have thought keeping rain off would be a decent idea. Also it’s easier to push snow off covers than it is off grass.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby geoffhill » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:16 pm

I thought that too.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Bridgford Stag » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:30 pm

bellwhiff wrote:
part time pete wrote:Frost covers do not project the ground from rain or melting snow.

I think we only have frost covers and not rain covers.

Really? Bearing the state of the surface, I’d have thought keeping rain off would be a decent idea. Also it’s easier to push snow off covers than it is off grass.


Oh 'whiffy.

That's what rain does across the whole country -that's nature and the beauty of the game?

Lets build a complete/moveable roof over FM then? That would keep the rain off and be a '....decent idea.'?

A New Year pledge then from me and summat I picked up on the radio over Christmas....'I want a Unicorn ....and World Peace....'

Hey ho and we can all dream?

A New Year and new hopes for us all. Keep safe all.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby chip63 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:39 pm

Can you tell what colour socks we Played in?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jKY6mS2NNHk

Modern footballers don't know they are born :D
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Amber Andy » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:46 pm

MTFCMAD wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
bellwhiff wrote:Why weren’t the covers on ?


Covers do very little against snow and rain.... Snow/water just sits on top and then has nowhere to go until you pull them off and it goes onto the pitch anyway.

Im sure covers main thing is for frost?

Isn't there usually an interview with mez when its called off :lol:


Harrogates pitch is covered in snow but there getting fans to help clear it.

Apparently we cant do that.

Didn't do them much good. Game abandoned.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby DogsDoDahs » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:46 pm

Firstly i am no expert of drainage and football pitches but i remember somebody coming on this forum about 18 months ago who was very well informed on drainage and seeding of playing surfaces.
He pointed out that the re-seeding was done poorly on a small budget and was ridiculed for it.
He said that drainage is key will soak aways running in a correct line to the lowest point being found by laser lining the complete pitch before re-seeding is done otherwise a few days of rain will leave it looking like a paddy field. Looking like his prediction was accurate now and come close season that will now need to be done. Basically the drainage was done badly and needs doing right next time.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby MTFCMAD » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:49 pm

DogsDoDahs wrote:Firstly i am no expert of drainage and football pitches but i remember somebody coming on this forum about 18 months ago who was very well informed on drainage and seeding of playing surfaces.
He pointed out that the re-seeding was done poorly on a small budget and was ridiculed for it.
He said that drainage is key will soak aways running in a correct line to the lowest point being found by laser lining the complete pitch before re-seeding is done otherwise a few days of rain will leave it looking like a paddy field. Looking like his prediction was accurate now and come close season that will now need to be done. Basically the drainage was done badly and needs doing right next time.


I remembered it well and he got chased off this message board for daring to state the pitch might of been installed wrongly. Typical stagsnet really as I remember he came across very informed compared to the “my lawn is alright brigade”.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Martin Shaw » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:58 pm

What Mez said is: “Because of the effects of the pandemic in the close season, we weren’t able this year to prepare the pitch to its full capacity. There is therefore a drainage issue, which is causing a problem with water getting through the surface and into the drain, as will have been noticeable in our last home game against Southend United.”

So the problem started during Lockdown 1.0. Whether more could have been done since Lockdown 1.0, I don't know. And whether Mez could have been allowed to work on the pitch earlier, I don't know.

We did go 4 years without a game being called off for bad weather between 2014 and November 2018.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby MTFCMAD » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:20 pm

Martin Shaw wrote:What Mez said is: “Because of the effects of the pandemic in the close season, we weren’t able this year to prepare the pitch to its full capacity. There is therefore a drainage issue, which is causing a problem with water getting through the surface and into the drain, as will have been noticeable in our last home game against Southend United.”

So the problem started during Lockdown 1.0. Whether more could have been done since Lockdown 1.0, I don't know. And whether Mez could have been allowed to work on the pitch earlier, I don't know.

We did go 4 years without a game being called off for bad weather between 2014 and November 2018.


I totally agree the club could have and should have done more regarding the playing surface during lockdown....didn’t County have there’s ripped up and replaced ?

From memory as well the pitch wasn’t quite ready at the start of last season and deteriorated alot quicker than the previous 2 seasons under Evans and Flitcroft. Im starting to get the feeling mez hasn’t had the Support he required from the club as well as him having his workload tripled due to the pitches up at RH academy being added to his workload.

I hope mez gets a late Christmas present in the form of a Desso pitch this summer now.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby DogsDoDahs » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:58 pm

I also hope Mez gets more support and late xmas pressies too. But its no use laying a desso pitch unless you get the drainage pipes right in the first place. The last time the drainage was altered was 18 months ago and caused the comments to be made by a person who had worked on new pitches in both the premier league and the championship and he stated it was being done wrong and on the cheap so its not irrelevant IMO. That's when the drainage problems really started and its got nothing to do with lockdown and lack of pre season prep because to put it right means starting over again from scratch and putting right what was done poorly 18 months ago.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby kevin kents tasce » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:02 pm

DogsDoDahs wrote:I also hope Mez gets more support and late xmas pressies too. But its no use laying a desso pitch unless you get the drainage pipes right in the first place. The last time the drainage was altered was 18 months ago and caused the comments to be made by a person who had worked on new pitches in both the premier league and the championship and he stated it was being done wrong and on the cheap so its not irrelevant IMO. That's when the drainage problems really started and its got nothing to do with lockdown and lack of pre season prep because to put it right means starting over again from scratch and putting right what was done poorly 18 months ago.



I’d be interested to read the thread again as on the face of it, the poster was completely right
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby MTFCMusings » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:13 pm

kevin kents tasce wrote:
DogsDoDahs wrote:I also hope Mez gets more support and late xmas pressies too. But its no use laying a desso pitch unless you get the drainage pipes right in the first place. The last time the drainage was altered was 18 months ago and caused the comments to be made by a person who had worked on new pitches in both the premier league and the championship and he stated it was being done wrong and on the cheap so its not irrelevant IMO. That's when the drainage problems really started and its got nothing to do with lockdown and lack of pre season prep because to put it right means starting over again from scratch and putting right what was done poorly 18 months ago.



I’d be interested to read the thread again as on the face of it, the poster was completely right


https://www.stagsnet.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36709&hilit=Drainage&start=25

Merry Christmas.

The poster was Maldon Stag, it’s on page two.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:18 pm

The thread on the pitch was from December 2019 and the relevant posts were by Maldon Stag:

POST 1
"The amount of rain has got nothing to do with it, Mez has made a right hash of the pitch for two seasons running. When the pitch was re seeded he didn't take enough top soil off meaning it had to be done again the following season while adding drainage near the West Stand. I don't rate him as a groundsman, there are better groundsmen out there who, will have that pitch looking like a carpet."


POST 2 (Dan had asked him what experience he had)
"You certainly can, I spent 3 years working for Talbot Farm Landscapes where, we laid many football pitches for the likes of QPR, Portsmouth and Burton Albion to name a few when we worked for SIS Pitches, we also landscaped some of the Olympic Village in London including part of the London Stadium after the original contractor gave back the contract as it was a step to far.

Preparation is the key when laying or re-laying a sports surface, the soil needs to be worked then worked again, you can't just take the top off and re-seed the underneath hoping all is going to grow well for a few seasons because it wont.

Drainage is the key, making sure you have the soakaway running in the right direction to the lowest point of the pitch. Getting it laser lined is crucial, this will ensure the water will drain away to it's lowest point and not hang about underneath the pitch like it is doing. It's plain to see to someone like myself who has worked in the "Sports Surface Industry" that the re-seeding was done on a small budget, most football clubs use the "Turf Roll System," it costs a little bit more but, it's the only way for a sustainable surface that isn't going to look like it's been ploughed ready to plant potatoes after a few games in wet conditions. The science behind growing grass for professional football use has come on in leaps and bounds in the last 15 years, there's a grass out there now that can grow in sand and without water, I think it's called TIFF 118, it's sprayed on in a mulch helping it bind to the sand enabling it to take root and grow.

I would also urge the club to buy more sun lamps, having a row of three isn't going to work, shell out a little bit more and increase the amount to cover a quarter of the pitch due to the West Stand blocking out even the winter sun, this will encourage the grass to grow even in winter when temperatures are minus 1.

Any groundsman worth his salt will know that you can't scrimp and scrape when it comes to the playing surface because, a few days of rain will have it looking like a paddy field.

The pitch needs a lot of work doing to it over a few seasons, laser 50 points of the pitch, find the lowest point then, work from there."
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby The One » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:25 pm

Looks like he did know his stuff and proved to be right re drainage .
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby kevin kents tasce » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:27 pm

Just read through it and he ended up being ‘discredited’ by some posters.

Interesting though that the issues has arisen again and that our pitch appears to be in a much worse state than others in the league.

I don’t profess to know anything about pitch care, but clearly the club needs to look at the issue with more of a critical eye
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:30 pm

It looks like we needed to spend a lot more than £100,000 on the pitch to improve it long term.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby oldweststander » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:37 pm

The pitch has been great over the last few seasons and has always held up well in bad weather. I remember the days when if the trainer dropped his sponge the match was abandoned due to waterlogging.

Obviously, Mez is correct, not enough time, after furlough, to do a proper job on the pitch.

Question, was it a good decision to furlough the head groundsman?
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby kevin kents tasce » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:40 pm

oldweststander wrote:The pitch has been great over the last few seasons and has always held up well in bad weather. I remember the days when if the trainer dropped his sponge the match was abandoned due to waterlogging.

Obviously, Mez is correct, not enough time, after furlough, to do a proper job on the pitch.

Question, was it a good decision to furlough the head groundsman?


Why is it obvious that Mez is correct? The pitch was equally as poor last season.

The answer the question, no it’s not a good idea to furlough the people responsible for maintaining the most important asset the club has.
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Re: Cabbage patch

Postby wardy12345 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:45 pm

If the sub soil is clay then draining the pitch will always be difficult without spending a small fortune.
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