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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Dan » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:19 am

Chander Lear wrote:
Dan wrote:He's only gone for a month so I think that speaks for itself.


Yeh, janaury transfer window


What about it?
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby steve-hymas » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:24 pm

It’s a good move for Alistair smith. It must have been soul destroying sitting on our bench for the last couple of years nearly .His confidence in his own ability must be at an all time low.I feel it will be good if he can get the game time under his belt and start a career for himself .Only regular football will he find his mojo.
Remember we have had 11 players that have struggled with confidence for the first 8 games .look at them now .
Good luck Alistair on your loan
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Amberheart » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:39 pm

Good luck Alistair hope the loan goes well for you
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby kevin kents tasce » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:05 pm

steve-hymas wrote:It’s a good move for Alistair smith. It must have been soul destroying sitting on our bench for the last couple of years nearly .His confidence in his own ability must be at an all time low.I feel it will be good if he can get the game time under his belt and start a career for himself .Only regular football will he find his mojo.
Remember we have had 11 players that have struggled with confidence for the first 8 games .look at them now .
Good luck Alistair on your loan


The reason his confidence is probably low is that he has been playing a level of football which is clearly beyond his ability. Pressing managers into playing kids who are not ready to perform at our level is not helping their development.

Hopefully he can do well at Altrincham and get a contract, because National League north is probably about his level imo.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby MTFCMAD » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:27 pm

kevin kents tasce wrote:
steve-hymas wrote:It’s a good move for Alistair smith. It must have been soul destroying sitting on our bench for the last couple of years nearly .His confidence in his own ability must be at an all time low.I feel it will be good if he can get the game time under his belt and start a career for himself .Only regular football will he find his mojo.
Remember we have had 11 players that have struggled with confidence for the first 8 games .look at them now .
Good luck Alistair on your loan


The reason his confidence is probably low is that he has been playing a level of football which is clearly beyond his ability. Pressing managers into playing kids who are not ready to perform at our level is not helping their development.

Hopefully he can do well at Altrincham and get a contract, because National League north is probably about his level imo.


Soz Fergie...didnt know you was an expert football Scout.

:roll:
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:37 pm

Unfortunately I have to agree about Alister’s ability levels. He has some good skills and can find a really good pass at times but that isn’t enough. He needs too much time on the ball and often turns into trouble by making wrong decisions. When pressed he easily gives the ball away in vital and dangerous areas and for a big lad, he isn’t very strong on the ball. Some of his skills could see him in league one but his overall game isn’t good enough for the league.

Perhaps if he had been given more game time when younger he could have made the grade but unfortunately that didn’t happen and his development has gone. I do wish him luck but also cannot see him having a place in future stags teams.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby kevin kents tasce » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:53 pm

MTFCMAD wrote:Soz Fergie...didnt know you was an expert football Scout.

:roll:


Go on then explain why I'm wrong
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Sedgwick » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:05 pm

steve-hymas wrote:It’s a good move for Alistair smith. It must have been soul destroying sitting on our bench for the last couple of years nearly .His confidence in his own ability must be at an all time low.I feel it will be good if he can get the game time under his belt and start a career for himself .Only regular football will he find his mojo.
Remember we have had 11 players that have struggled with confidence for the first 8 games .look at them now .
Good luck Alistair on your loan


Hi Steve, just wandering what the strategy is for our kids?

It seems only really recently that we've been loaning them to a decent level? Jimmy at County and Smith at Altrincham at national league level, before that for years they've been off at really low levels and then seemed to disappear or not develop any further by being kept in the youth teams.

One example is Jason Law. He clearly has ability and when involved with the first team in the cups and trophy games looks more than capable but since 2015 he's not played much football any higher than a few games at national league north... at 21 he's not a kid anymore.

Jordan Graham was another that comes to mind, promising player but only ever had one loan at Hednesford.

Tyrese Sinclair is the next one.... He really needs to be going out somewhere better than Basford united fgs.... We know how good he is but won't develop sat on the first team bench and playing the odd reserve/ sup game.

Our best kids need to be going out sooner and playing proper football, I know our youth teams are regularly top of the league but they won't get anywhere playing that standard every week.

The past few years seems like we'd rather shout about an academy side winning their league every year rather than being brave and developing them properly, because when they step up to the first team, few are ready or good enough and no longer kids.

not having a go in the slightest, the academy is bloody brilliant for the club but just feels like there's not much direction or a clear path?
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby steve-hymas » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:43 pm

You have picked that up Sedgwick .We are trying to get lads out at the highest level possible.
The club is showing a commitment to developing players by going Cat 3 which now encompasses from age 9-13 and a much bigger group of qualified coaches have come in to develop the lads .
All the YDP (youth development phase)13,14,15,16 play the same system so we can move the lads up and down ages depending on ability and progress.
We now play a lot younger lads in our under 18s.we have had an under 15 playing at 18s all season which is pushing him all the way .
We played Lincoln city yesterday at the RH and lost 4-3 in a very tight game and I’m sure we could have put a side out to win the game but that’s our philosophy now.
The standard of player has improved throughout the academy with much improved coaching and the younger ages playing other professional clubs week in week out .
I have been at every 1st team game this season and watched many youth games at all ages this season and know how tough it will be to make that step up .
The likes of coops etc are on the case now and I am confident we will achieve our goal of producing players.watch this space :mtfc:
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby georgefostersbeard » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:56 pm

steve-hymas wrote:You have picked that up Sedgwick .We are trying to get lads out at the highest level possible.
The club is showing a commitment to developing players by going Cat 3 which now encompasses from age 9-13 and a much bigger group of qualified coaches have come in to develop the lads .
All the YDP (youth development phase)13,14,15,16 play the same system so we can move the lads up and down ages depending on ability and progress.
We now play a lot younger lads in our under 18s.we have had an under 15 playing at 18s all season which is pushing him all the way .
We played Lincoln city yesterday at the RH and lost 4-3 in a very tight game and I’m sure we could have put a side out to win the game but that’s our philosophy now.
The standard of player has improved throughout the academy with much improved coaching and the younger ages playing other professional clubs week in week out .
I have been at every 1st team game this season and watched many youth games at all ages this season and know how tough it will be to make that step up .
The likes of coops etc are on the case now and I am confident we will achieve our goal of producing players.watch this space :mtfc:


This is good news and the developments you cite, Steve, are things which had to be done and bode well for the future. I remember what appeared to be a complete disconnect between the academy and first manager during Flitcroft's time and having a common system across the team. We can only hope that Nigel Clough is a long term success so that our youngsters start coming through on a conveyor belt which will both benefit the club short term but also create long term stability. All good news at the moment
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Vice President » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:18 pm

Youngsters should only come through if they are good enough. I do not believe that Alistair Smith is good enough.

Personally, I have never been convinced that our academy will provide us with the quality that we can pick up from other academies higher up the pyramid. Charsley & Lapslie are good recent examples of youngsters that we can pick up for nothing that are much better than what we currently have.

Sinclair is an exception - he looks good and I would trust Nigel's judgement and handling in that regard.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby georgefostersbeard » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:47 pm

Vice President wrote:Youngsters should only come through if they are good enough. I do not believe that Alistair Smith is good enough.

Personally, I have never been convinced that our academy will provide us with the quality that we can pick up from other academies higher up the pyramid. Charsley & Lapslie are good recent examples of youngsters that we can pick up for nothing that are much better than what we currently have.

Sinclair is an exception - he looks good and I would trust Nigel's judgement and handling in that regard.


The thing is that Lapslie and Charslie don't necessarily come for free they require relocation fees and inducements to come. So it does make good business sense to grow your won. We seem to be just a little short of the quality needed with those from the local area although those like Sinclair and Knowles that we picked up as discards from bigger academies look as though they will be successful. I suspect it will all take time to get right though.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby MTFCMAD » Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:38 pm

Vice President wrote:Youngsters should only come through if they are good enough. I do not believe that Alistair Smith is good enough.

Personally, I have never been convinced that our academy will provide us with the quality that we can pick up from other academies higher up the pyramid. Charsley & Lapslie are good recent examples of youngsters that we can pick up for nothing that are much better than what we currently have.

Sinclair is an exception - he looks good and I would trust Nigel's judgement and handling in that regard.


Also one thing you need to remember here is that your comparing an 18 year old and a 19 year old with a 24 year old and 23 year old and arguing they are not at the same level.

It’s obvious that the products coming through the academy are slowly getting better. I’m sure SH said the academy’s self sufficient so we only really need to do is sit back and wait for the next Lawrence, Disley and leroys.

Some supporters need to realise that getting an academy up and running producing good football league players is not an overnight story. We’ve only been a cat 3 academy for a couple of months this thing will take years not months some fans seem to think.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby gazza1988 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:00 pm

Since 18/19 there is a pathway because its enforced in the rules. The club developed player rule.

Flitcroft gave 1st team debuts to a fair few youth players. Law, Smith, Graham to name a few (most had the Scunthorpe game in the trophy) I think some were named on the bench but only Jordan Graham made around a dozen appearances that season. Then he got an injury and he barely played after that.

We saw debuts last season from Sinclair and Knowles (probably others too).

Problem is we need points. More points mean more prizes. The chances of a youth teamer actually making it are slim, that's why many managers don't look to a clubs own youth players to play them.

Law and Sinclair are at a stage where they could do with a run in the side. Because we need points they don't get a look in. Look at yesterday's team sheet. Not 1 youth teamer named in the 18. Evans gave game time to youth teamers in cups and in the league when we could neither go up or down. Flitcroft gave game time in the league and cups. Mainly because we were doing well and they were on the bench due to rules. Now we are struggling in the league and youth will barely get a look in. Unless Clough hits some great form.

It's good that the pathway is there. I just feel we are expecting 3 or 4 to get into the first team each season we are a few years off being able to do that unless we got some real gems from other clubs at exit trials for example.

Anyone know how long we were category 4 for?
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby kevin kents tasce » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:53 pm

MTFCMAD wrote:
Also one thing you need to remember here is that your comparing an 18 year old and a 19 year old with a 24 year old and 23 year old and arguing they are not at the same level.

It’s obvious that the products coming through the academy are slowly getting better. I’m sure SH said the academy’s self sufficient so we only really need to do is sit back and wait for the next Lawrence, Disley and leroys.



Smith and Law are both 21. Lapslie is 23. At a younger age Lapslie was playing at L1 level and doing well too.

If you want similar age comparisons, look at Stone, Clarke and O'Driscoll who came through premier league academies. All are much higher quality than the lads we produce currently.

If you think it's just a matter of waiting for the next batch to come along then you are mistaken. It needs a good level of talent ID, then recruitment, quality coaching and finally they need experience at the right level so that they can come into the first team and compete.

I think we appear to now be getting the first bits correct, but the experience part is where we have been getting it wrong. They are going from low level youth football to football league and that is way too much for them.

You are right that it takes time, but I don't think it's the fans who need to recognise this, it's the board. Where is Zane Hakeem nowadays anyway?
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby geoffhill » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:07 pm

We only just lost 4-3 to Lincoln on Saturday with several players16-17.Apparently it was the best performance of the season.As a club patience is needed.The Rooneys and Bellinghams are a rare breed.If the club keep on developing the youngsters we will see a few make the step up.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby gazza1988 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:22 pm

The old phrase "you never win anything with kids" is largely true. We've not won anything with kids since the early 2000s.

Really that phrase should include "....unless they are good enough" at the end of it.

There will be players released as "not good enough" and ply their trade in non league for a bit and then get picked up. Probably the highest profile example is Jamie Vardy.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Captain Cunno » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:31 pm

A 14 year old playing for the under 18s looks promising.
He must be some player.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby broomo » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:47 am

i can guarantee the kids will get a chance under Clough, he's done it everywhere he's been and has already shown here he'll look to get them minutes in any games he can.

At Derby he gave a 16 year old Mark O'Brien his debut at CENTRE HALF, how many managers do that in a position where you need to be physically strong? OB played a dozen games in the Championship after making his debut, Nigel's view usually is, if you have the shirt and do a job, you keep the shirt.

He played Mason Bennett at 15, gave Will Hughes the central midfield role when he was still only 16, Jeff Hendrick at 17, but there were numerous others.

At Sheff Utd it was Louis Reed but he also gave Dominic Calvert Lewin his debut at 17.

At Burton before he left Reece Hutchinson, Ben Fox, Marcus Harness, (sold to Portsmouth for a million) Joe Sbarra and before them John Brayford.

He understands the whole club gets a lift when a good young prospect from the Academy is promoted and he understands it only takes a dozen or so good games before other clubs come sniffing.

I think he said he asked Cooper who the best player in the Academy was before putting Caine on the bench?

He'll do that as often as he can and he'll do it even more once we're safe. Sometimes as a reward for hard work but most of the time because he wants to find out as quickly as possible whether the kids can step up.

I said it as soon as he was linked, if he comes, the academy lads should be licking their lips and busting their balls to work hard.

They will be given an opportunity under Nigel, the rest is up to them.

He'll probably look to tighten the squad so that there's no more than 18 or 19 solid first team pro's and then supplement that with the lads from the youth team, he'll create the pathway that isn't there at the moment as there's 22 to 25 first team lads so even if one gets injured/suspended it's a squad member who fills in rather than the 18th on the bench being a 17 year old kid getting the matchday experience.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Chander Lear » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:00 am

Dan wrote:
Chander Lear wrote:
Dan wrote:He's only gone for a month so I think that speaks for itself.


Yeh, janaury transfer window


What about it?


Thats what he'll be coming back for. Unless he has a drastic turn whilst on loan, i think we've seen the last of him.Its a shame, good on the ball but doesnt offer enough to even be in close contention with what we have.
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Amberheart » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:45 am

broomo wrote:i can guarantee the kids will get a chance under Clough, he's done it everywhere he's been and has already shown here he'll look to get them minutes in any games he can.

At Derby he gave a 16 year old Mark O'Brien his debut at CENTRE HALF, how many managers do that in a position where you need to be physically strong? OB played a dozen games in the Championship after making his debut, Nigel's view usually is, if you have the shirt and do a job, you keep the shirt.

He played Mason Bennett at 15, gave Will Hughes the central midfield role when he was still only 16, Jeff Hendrick at 17, but there were numerous others.

At Sheff Utd it was Louis Reed but he also gave Dominic Calvert Lewin his debut at 17.

At Burton before he left Reece Hutchinson, Ben Fox, Marcus Harness, (sold to Portsmouth for a million) Joe Sbarra and before them John Brayford.

He understands the whole club gets a lift when a good young prospect from the Academy is promoted and he understands it only takes a dozen or so good games before other clubs come sniffing.

I think he said he asked Cooper who the best player in the Academy was before putting Caine on the bench?

He'll do that as often as he can and he'll do it even more once we're safe. Sometimes as a reward for hard work but most of the time because he wants to find out as quickly as possible whether the kids can step up.

I said it as soon as he was linked, if he comes, the academy lads should be licking their lips and busting their balls to work hard.

They will be given an opportunity under Nigel, the rest is up to them.

He'll probably look to tighten the squad so that there's no more than 18 or 19 solid first team pro's and then supplement that with the lads from the youth team, he'll create the pathway that isn't there at the moment as there's 22 to 25 first team lads so even if one gets injured/suspended it's a squad member who fills in rather than the 18th on the bench being a 17 year old kid getting the matchday experience.

Sounds reassuring thanks for the info
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby bear 73 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:13 pm

Clough believes if your good enough your old enough. a great believer in home grown talent,and will be in and around the academy set up and fully focused on the pit falls of playing young players, , he will put in a solid foundations starting with the academy right through to the first team., Coops and his staff will be a vital cog, in Nigel's wheel
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby one f in mansfield » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:36 pm

Captain Cunno wrote:A 14 year old playing for the under 18s looks promising.
He must be some player.


My lad played for the Nottinghamshire schools team for 4 seasons from age 12 to 16 . Each season the team was mostly made up of lads who were big for their age , By the time my lad reached 16 there was only three lads who had played every season. Most of the others were early developers and when they stopped growing other lads could match their strength and they often seemed nothing special . A 14 year old playing with older lads will only benefit if he has talent to match his physique . My lad was average build for his age and was doing well until he discovered girls and beer .
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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Spiritater » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:38 am

one f in mansfield wrote:
Captain Cunno wrote:A 14 year old playing for the under 18s looks promising.
He must be some player.


My lad played for the Nottinghamshire schools team for 4 seasons from age 12 to 16 . Each season the team was mostly made up of lads who were big for their age , By the time my lad reached 16 there was only three lads who had played every season. Most of the others were early developers and when they stopped growing other lads could match their strength and they often seemed nothing special . A 14 year old playing with older lads will only benefit if he has talent to match his physique . My lad was average build for his age and was doing well until he discovered girls and beer .

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Re: Alistair Smith

Postby Martin Shaw » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:35 pm

Alistair Smith starts for Altrincham against Chesterfield.

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