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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Dan » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:54 pm

How do you measure a dribble?
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:58 pm

Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


‘Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball’
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:20 pm

Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


If it’s enough to show up on your jeans but less than 1/2 an inch long, it’s a dribble. Anymore and it’s a full blown accident. :D :D
Who are you calling pedantic? I resemble that remark!
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:24 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


If it’s enough to show up on your jeans but less than 1/2 an inch long, it’s a dribble. Anymore and it’s a full blown accident. :D :D


:lol:
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Dan » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:30 am

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


If it’s enough to show up on your jeans but less than 1/2 an inch long, it’s a dribble. Anymore and it’s a full blown accident. :D :D


Best off wearing joggers then :lol:
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby one f in mansfield » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:54 am

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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Big yella » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:24 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:
Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


‘Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball’

So when a player knocks it past an opponent and out sprints him to the ball that’s a dribble?
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:39 pm

Big yella wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:
Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


‘Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball’

So when a player knocks it past an opponent and out sprints him to the ball that’s a dribble?


I wouldn’t say so, but I’m not sure. That’s WhoScored’s definition that I have quoted.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Big yella » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:52 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:
Big yella wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:
Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


‘Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball’

So when a player knocks it past an opponent and out sprints him to the ball that’s a dribble?


I wouldn’t say so, but I’m not sure. That’s WhoScored’s definition that I have quoted.

So those statistical facts you quote, aren’t so factual after all. Who’d a thunk it?
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:55 pm

Big yella wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:
Big yella wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:
Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?


‘Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball’

So when a player knocks it past an opponent and out sprints him to the ball that’s a dribble?


I wouldn’t say so, but I’m not sure. That’s WhoScored’s definition that I have quoted.

So those statistical facts you quote, aren’t so factual after all. Who’d a thunk it?


As long as they apply the same description across the board then it doesn’t make a difference.

I don’t work for them so I can’t clarify, but taking on an opponent is not the same as kicking the ball past them.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Big yella » Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:04 pm

So no commentator has ever said’a winger took on the full back on the outside and crossed into the middle’. They’re opinions not facts.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:08 pm

Big yella wrote:So no commentator has ever said’a winger took on the full back on the outside and crossed into the middle’. They’re opinions not facts.


That would be an opinion yes. But as long as WhoScored are adhering to whatever their version of the definition is, then their stats are accurate to that definition.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Dan » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:14 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:
Big yella wrote:So no commentator has ever said’a winger took on the full back on the outside and crossed into the middle’. They’re opinions not facts.


That would be an opinion yes. But as long as WhoScored are adhering to whatever their version of the definition is, then their stats are accurate to that definition.


And that says it all for me which is why it’s all a load of raspberrys.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:16 pm

Dan wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:
Big yella wrote:So no commentator has ever said’a winger took on the full back on the outside and crossed into the middle’. They’re opinions not facts.


That would be an opinion yes. But as long as WhoScored are adhering to whatever their version of the definition is, then their stats are accurate to that definition.


And that says it all for me which is why it’s all a load of raspberrys.


I think your comments on the other thread Dan have shown your lack of understanding of how some stats work :lol:
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Big yella » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:44 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:
Dan wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:
Big yella wrote:So no commentator has ever said’a winger took on the full back on the outside and crossed into the middle’. They’re opinions not facts.


That would be an opinion yes. But as long as WhoScored are adhering to whatever their version of the definition is, then their stats are accurate to that definition.


And that says it all for me which is why it’s all a load of raspberrys.


I think your comments on the other thread Dan have shown your lack of understanding of how some stats work :lol:

Well I do, and from your own posts it is clear that they are opinions facts. If you’re watching game A and think ‘skinning’ the full back isn’t a dribble and I’m watching game ‘B’ and think it is then the ‘facts’ are totally skewed.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:53 pm

I’m sure they will have caterers for that Yella. It’s probably not the first time someone has questioned it, even within their own company.

All that said I’m not really sure how we’ve made what constitutes a terrible last a full page :lol:
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:59 pm

Surely you knock the ball past the defender at some stage of every dribble unless you are going backwards.

If you retain possession it’s successful if they intercept its unsuccessful. Of course some players come back and have another go but that’s just showing off.
Who are you calling pedantic? I resemble that remark!
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Big yella » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:07 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Surely you knock the ball past the defender at some stage of every dribble unless you are going backwards.

If you retain possession it’s successful if they intercept its unsuccessful. Of course some players come back and have another go but that’s just showing off.

Liam at Huddersfield. :D He terrorised that full back that day.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby gazza1988 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:27 pm

For me a successful dribble is on where a players has possession of the ball and gets past an opposition player and retains the ball with nobody else touching it. Whilst also going forwards towards the byline.

When CJ used to knock the ball past the full back and then run onto it, that's a dribble. When Wayno Cordinhio used to tie defenders up in knots and leave them on their backside to wither get a shot or cross in, that's a dribble. When Hayden White used to do a few step overs before knocking the ball past his opponent and get a cross in, that's a dribble. When Ollie Clarke takes 2 touches and gets through 3 players to thread a ball through, that's a dribble.

It's a failed dribble if the someone else gets a touch to it or its run out of play.

That my opinion of it anyway.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Dan » Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:10 am

gazza1988 wrote:For me a successful dribble is on where a players has possession of the ball and gets past an opposition player and retains the ball with nobody else touching it. Whilst also going forwards towards the byline.

When CJ used to knock the ball past the full back and then run onto it, that's a dribble. When Wayno Cordinhio used to tie defenders up in knots and leave them on their backside to wither get a shot or cross in, that's a dribble. When Hayden White used to do a few step overs before knocking the ball past his opponent and get a cross in, that's a dribble. When Ollie Clarke takes 2 touches and gets through 3 players to thread a ball through, that's a dribble.

It's a failed dribble if the someone else gets a touch to it or its run out of play.

That my opinion of it anyway.


That's my whole point with these made up statistics like xG etc. They're not 'proper' stats like shots on goal, shots on target, corners, goals, yellow cards, red cards etc they're opinions. That's what does my head in and loads of other people. It's just made up mumbo jumbo brought in by young people with nothing better to do with their time to try and make the game more 'trendy'.

Look at xG. Now to me 'expected' is something that will happen in the future. Therefore xG would be what you expect the teams to score in the game that's coming up. How you would be able to tell that anyway unless you're some sort of psychic is beyond me anyway. But now Musings is saying that it's used AFTER the game too. So how can it be 'expected' when the game had finished? I saw one the other day that one team had got 2 xG and the game had finished 0-0! Surely if xG is done after the game then both teams xG's would both be 0, no? It's ridiculous. No one seems to know what they're on about, it's embarrassing.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Amber Andy » Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:20 am

Dan wrote:How do you measure a dribble?

Top cat always had the measure of Officer Dribble :)
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:01 am

Dan wrote:
gazza1988 wrote:For me a successful dribble is on where a players has possession of the ball and gets past an opposition player and retains the ball with nobody else touching it. Whilst also going forwards towards the byline.

When CJ used to knock the ball past the full back and then run onto it, that's a dribble. When Wayno Cordinhio used to tie defenders up in knots and leave them on their backside to wither get a shot or cross in, that's a dribble. When Hayden White used to do a few step overs before knocking the ball past his opponent and get a cross in, that's a dribble. When Ollie Clarke takes 2 touches and gets through 3 players to thread a ball through, that's a dribble.

It's a failed dribble if the someone else gets a touch to it or its run out of play.

That my opinion of it anyway.


That's my whole point with these made up statistics like xG etc. They're not 'proper' stats like shots on goal, shots on target, corners, goals, yellow cards, red cards etc they're opinions. That's what does my head in and loads of other people. It's just made up mumbo jumbo brought in by young people with nothing better to do with their time to try and make the game more 'trendy'.

Look at xG. Now to me 'expected' is something that will happen in the future. Therefore xG would be what you expect the teams to score in the game that's coming up. How you would be able to tell that anyway unless you're some sort of psychic is beyond me anyway. But now Musings is saying that it's used AFTER the game too. So how can it be 'expected' when the game had finished? I saw one the other day that one team had got 2 xG and the game had finished 0-0! Surely if xG is done after the game then both teams xG's would both be 0, no? It's ridiculous. No one seems to know what they're on about, it's embarrassing.


Dan, I’m afraid it’s you who doesn’t know what you’re on about. You’re really struggling with the xG concept. Fair enough if you hold no belief in it but it’s really easy to understand. You’ve got to be on the wind up.

Take the 0-0 game you mention. I don’t know what game you’re talking about, but surely you’ve watched a 0-0 where you’ve though, how has that finished 0-0? It could’ve been 0-0 and each team had 20 shots each. The xG is going to be higher than 0 because each team creates a lot of chances. In fact, any game where a team has a shot is going to have an xG higher than 0. For the umpteenth time, it measure the quality of the chances created! It’s called Expected Goals because it’s the number of goals expected from the quality of chances created.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:52 am

Dan wrote:
gazza1988 wrote:For me a successful dribble is on where a players has possession of the ball and gets past an opposition player and retains the ball with nobody else touching it. Whilst also going forwards towards the byline.

When CJ used to knock the ball past the full back and then run onto it, that's a dribble. When Wayno Cordinhio used to tie defenders up in knots and leave them on their backside to wither get a shot or cross in, that's a dribble. When Hayden White used to do a few step overs before knocking the ball past his opponent and get a cross in, that's a dribble. When Ollie Clarke takes 2 touches and gets through 3 players to thread a ball through, that's a dribble.

It's a failed dribble if the someone else gets a touch to it or its run out of play.

That my opinion of it anyway.


That's my whole point with these made up statistics like xG etc. They're not 'proper' stats like shots on goal, shots on target, corners, goals, yellow cards, red cards etc they're opinions. That's what does my head in and loads of other people. It's just made up mumbo jumbo brought in by young people with nothing better to do with their time to try and make the game more 'trendy'.

Look at xG. Now to me 'expected' is something that will happen in the future. Therefore xG would be what you expect the teams to score in the game that's coming up. How you would be able to tell that anyway unless you're some sort of psychic is beyond me anyway. But now Musings is saying that it's used AFTER the game too. So how can it be 'expected' when the game had finished? I saw one the other day that one team had got 2 xG and the game had finished 0-0! Surely if xG is done after the game then both teams xG's would both be 0, no? It's ridiculous. No one seems to know what they're on about, it's embarrassing.


Technically speaking aren't shots and shots on target opinion based? It's the opinion of the one compiling those stats whether it was a shot or not. Also if they are in the press box in the west stand (for games at field Mill for example) is that the best angle for the tight ones that could be just on target? What constitutes a shot? I've seen games where we've shot and the defender blocks it and it's not counted as a shot at all. For me a shot is a player striking the ball towards goal. The only concrete stats we have around these are the ones the referee indicates. Goals, free kicks, corners, yellow/red cards etc. Others like passes and saves etc can also be reliably counted.

Just to be extra facetious technically stats like fouls, goals, cards, corners etc come from the referee and so are based on the opinion of 1 person too so should they be discounted as well ;)

Isn't expected past tense? So it does work. Something happening in the future would be expecting, surely? Just expect can be future as well. For example, "I expect a win on Saturday" "I'm expecting a win on Saturday" are both future and valid for this Saturday but if I say "I expected a win on Saturday" indicates I think we should have won the previous Saturday.

As for a game finishing 0-0 and the xG should be 0? No, that's not how it works. It's expected goal not scored goals. The 0-0 you mention with 1 side having a xG of 2 makes no sense. It kinda does. To me it says 1 of 2 things(you can use other stats to figure out which) either the defence and keeper played a blinder or the attackers had a nightmare finishing.

What you need to understand about the xG stats is its a likelihood of a goal occurring from the chance that was created. That's it. At the end of the game all these chances ratings are added up and that's how you get the total xG and why its nearly always decimal.

Don't think of xG as affecting the result, that's not it's intention. It's an attempts to tell the story of the game without having to watch it. Yes, nothing beats watching the game but it's there if you want it.

XG isn't really something you can explain in a forum post.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:59 pm

gazza1988 wrote:
Dan wrote:
gazza1988 wrote:For me a successful dribble is on where a players has possession of the ball and gets past an opposition player and retains the ball with nobody else touching it. Whilst also going forwards towards the byline.

When CJ used to knock the ball past the full back and then run onto it, that's a dribble. When Wayno Cordinhio used to tie defenders up in knots and leave them on their backside to wither get a shot or cross in, that's a dribble. When Hayden White used to do a few step overs before knocking the ball past his opponent and get a cross in, that's a dribble. When Ollie Clarke takes 2 touches and gets through 3 players to thread a ball through, that's a dribble.

It's a failed dribble if the someone else gets a touch to it or its run out of play.

That my opinion of it anyway.


That's my whole point with these made up statistics like xG etc. They're not 'proper' stats like shots on goal, shots on target, corners, goals, yellow cards, red cards etc they're opinions. That's what does my head in and loads of other people. It's just made up mumbo jumbo brought in by young people with nothing better to do with their time to try and make the game more 'trendy'.

Look at xG. Now to me 'expected' is something that will happen in the future. Therefore xG would be what you expect the teams to score in the game that's coming up. How you would be able to tell that anyway unless you're some sort of psychic is beyond me anyway. But now Musings is saying that it's used AFTER the game too. So how can it be 'expected' when the game had finished? I saw one the other day that one team had got 2 xG and the game had finished 0-0! Surely if xG is done after the game then both teams xG's would both be 0, no? It's ridiculous. No one seems to know what they're on about, it's embarrassing.


Technically speaking aren't shots and shots on target opinion based? It's the opinion of the one compiling those stats whether it was a shot or not. Also if they are in the press box in the west stand (for games at field Mill for example) is that the best angle for the tight ones that could be just on target? What constitutes a shot? I've seen games where we've shot and the defender blocks it and it's not counted as a shot at all. For me a shot is a player striking the ball towards goal. The only concrete stats we have around these are the ones the referee indicates. Goals, free kicks, corners, yellow/red cards etc. Others like passes and saves etc can also be reliably counted.

Just to be extra facetious technically stats like fouls, goals, cards, corners etc come from the referee and so are based on the opinion of 1 person too so should they be discounted as well ;)

Isn't expected past tense? So it does work. Something happening in the future would be expecting, surely? Just expect can be future as well. For example, "I expect a win on Saturday" "I'm expecting a win on Saturday" are both future and valid for this Saturday but if I say "I expected a win on Saturday" indicates I think we should have won the previous Saturday.

As for a game finishing 0-0 and the xG should be 0? No, that's not how it works. It's expected goal not scored goals. The 0-0 you mention with 1 side having a xG of 2 makes no sense. It kinda does. To me it says 1 of 2 things(you can use other stats to figure out which) either the defence and keeper played a blinder or the attackers had a nightmare finishing.

What you need to understand about the xG stats is its a likelihood of a goal occurring from the chance that was created. That's it. At the end of the game all these chances ratings are added up and that's how you get the total xG and why its nearly always decimal.

Don't think of xG as affecting the result, that's not it's intention. It's an attempts to tell the story of the game without having to watch it. Yes, nothing beats watching the game but it's there if you want it.

XG isn't really something you can explain in a forum post.


A small flaw in that Gaza as expected can also be used in a future tense as in ‘You will be playing on Saturday and you will be expected to perform to a high standard’. So you can use expected in the future tense if it’s expected by someone else.

You could argue this all day long and everyone will have a different view. Maybe we should just accept that there is some merit to the system but the level of merit varies with your own view of the issue.
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Re: League 2 Statistics 2020-2021

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:08 pm

I’ll go along with the above if it stops the mythbusters :lol:
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