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Macclesfield Penalty

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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Birminghamstag10 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:00 pm

exactly, a charge is just that - the charge needs proving one way or the other and if disproved it will be dropped and no penalty applied.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby adamstag » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:17 pm

oldweststander wrote:
adamstag wrote:
eggy wrote:
oldweststander wrote:
adamstag wrote:Looks like the EFL are trying to conveniently shaft them to not have the same issue they had with bury this term.

I agree that they, like all clubs should have to provide evidence on how they plan to fund the season and provide assurances they’ll be no problems - but it stinks a bit that the EFL seem to be trying to shovel them off for a fabricated reason.




What could be less "fabricated" than not paying your players?


Was just about to say exactly the same thing myself. They've been behind on wages all season. There's plenty of time for arguments on what the percentage/cap on wages in the other thread, but not paying wages is the clearest example of living beyond your means.


Which is a fair point, but the latest punishment is for them not paying wages in full and on time in may, which they have. Both the club and the supporters trust have provided evidence of so and the supporters club provided a loan to help ensure it happened.

So in essence the EFL have currently charged them for not doing something they have.


If there is no case to answer there will be no penalty.


And that’s pretty much is what’s happening.

As said above, the main issue is that the EFL seem intent in getting rid of them after the bury fiasco.

The macc fans aren’t happy with either the club or the EFL!
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Jimstag » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:35 am

Player statement: “ We feel the EFL are trying their best to throw Macclesfield out of the league”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52988026

I tend to agree with this statement, I think the EFL want rid of a problem and the additional charges from earlier in the season seem convenient to me. I think the EFL should be asking if they can prove they have the resources to complete next season.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Woodclanger 1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:48 am

Jimstag wrote:Player statement: “ We feel the EFL are trying their best to throw Macclesfield out of the league”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52988026

I tend to agree with this statement, I think the EFL want rid of a problem and the additional charges from earlier in the season seem convenient to me. I think the EFL should be asking if they can prove they have the resources to complete next season.


They probably need to ask every club that in the current climate?
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Jimstag » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:54 am

Woodclanger 1 wrote:
Jimstag wrote:Player statement: “ We feel the EFL are trying their best to throw Macclesfield out of the league”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52988026

I tend to agree with this statement, I think the EFL want rid of a problem and the additional charges from earlier in the season seem convenient to me. I think the EFL should be asking if they can prove they have the resources to complete next season.


They probably need to ask every club that in the current climate?


True, but I’d have Macclesfield top of my list as they couldn’t make it pay in the good times.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby oldweststander » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:31 am

As I said previously, no offence, no punishment.

We will see how it pans out.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Sweden Stag » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:54 pm

If Macc are thrown out, it will be the first time since 1967-68 a club is thrown out within the EFL due to off-the-field-matters. Then, Peterborough (who on the field finished ninth then), were demoted to the fourth division. Guess who were reprieved then? Mansfield Town! Then, the Stags finished in 21th position (the first relegation spot) in the old third division. I still remember it as if it were yesterday, and not May 1968.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby oldweststander » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:33 pm

Sweden Stag wrote:If Macc are thrown out, it will be the first time since 1967-68 a club is thrown out within the EFL due to off-the-field-matters. Then, Peterborough (who on the field finished ninth then), were demoted to the fourth division. Guess who were reprieved then? Mansfield Town! Then, the Stags finished in 21th position (the first relegation spot) in the old third division. I still remember it as if it were yesterday, and not May 1968.



You sure?

Wasn't it re-election position not relegation in 68?
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby part time pete » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:05 pm

oldweststander wrote:
Sweden Stag wrote:If Macc are thrown out, it will be the first time since 1967-68 a club is thrown out within the EFL due to off-the-field-matters. Then, Peterborough (who on the field finished ninth then), were demoted to the fourth division. Guess who were reprieved then? Mansfield Town! Then, the Stags finished in 21th position (the first relegation spot) in the old third division. I still remember it as if it were yesterday, and not May 1968.



You sure?

Wasn't it re-election position not relegation in 68?


No, it was third division and not 4th.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby MTFCMAD » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:16 pm

part time pete wrote:
oldweststander wrote:
Sweden Stag wrote:If Macc are thrown out, it will be the first time since 1967-68 a club is thrown out within the EFL due to off-the-field-matters. Then, Peterborough (who on the field finished ninth then), were demoted to the fourth division. Guess who were reprieved then? Mansfield Town! Then, the Stags finished in 21th position (the first relegation spot) in the old third division. I still remember it as if it were yesterday, and not May 1968.



You sure?

Wasn't it re-election position not relegation in 68?


No, it was third division and not 4th.


Was bury not thrown out last season then ?
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Sweden Stag » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:23 pm

To clarify: Peterborough's demotion was decided midway through the 1967-68 season, I think. The Posh played all their 46 games then. Bury didn't play a single game and therefore in the end were thrown out.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:38 pm

I remember signing 'relegation to you' to the tune of happy birthday as they stuffed us at home that year.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby eggy » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:25 pm

adamstag wrote:
eggy wrote:
oldweststander wrote:
adamstag wrote:Looks like the EFL are trying to conveniently shaft them to not have the same issue they had with bury this term.

I agree that they, like all clubs should have to provide evidence on how they plan to fund the season and provide assurances they’ll be no problems - but it stinks a bit that the EFL seem to be trying to shovel them off for a fabricated reason.




What could be less "fabricated" than not paying your players?


Was just about to say exactly the same thing myself. They've been behind on wages all season. There's plenty of time for arguments on what the percentage/cap on wages in the other thread, but not paying wages is the clearest example of living beyond your means.


Which is a fair point, but the latest punishment is for them not paying wages in full and on time in may, which they have. Both the club and the supporters trust have provided evidence of so and the supporters club provided a loan to help ensure it happened.

So in essence the EFL have currently charged them for not doing something they have.


Only just seen your reply - isn't the latest charge for failing to pay wages in March?
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby ST4GS » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:04 pm

Sweden Stag wrote:If Macc are thrown out, it will be the first time since 1967-68 a club is thrown out within the EFL due to off-the-field-matters. Then, Peterborough (who on the field finished ninth then), were demoted to the fourth division. Guess who were reprieved then? Mansfield Town! Then, the Stags finished in 21th position (the first relegation spot) in the old third division. I still remember it as if it were yesterday, and not May 1968.

Using a bit of research on the last day of that season the Stags were 2 points clear of Grimsby and had a better goal average.
It was known that Peterborough would be automatically relegated so finishing 21st would be sufficient.
To be saved from relegation Grimsby needed to leapfrog the Stags by winning and hope the Stags lost and also to effectively turn round a FIVE goal deficit.
In the end Grimsby won their last game 3-2 and the Stags lost 3-0 so we clung onto our Division three status by the finest of margins. (Stags F51 A 67 Average = 0.761, Grimsby F52 A69 Average = 0.754)
Another goal conceded by the Stags or another Grimsby goal would have relegated the Stags.

This was before my time but does anyone of our let's say older generation recall this day and how it panned out?
How did our fans keep in touch of the state of play?, Were radio updates any good or too infrequent in 1968 or non existent? Did we need to wait until the final results were in and mathematics performed before we could breathe a sign of relief? How long was the wait?
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Rob » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:03 pm

I'd relegate Macc and Stevenage and take 3 from the Conference, I know that probably means Notts Co, but I do not think Stevenage deserve to stay up, they were appalling. It's a rubbish town as well!
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby robeyre » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:07 pm

ST4GS wrote:
Sweden Stag wrote:If Macc are thrown out, it will be the first time since 1967-68 a club is thrown out within the EFL due to off-the-field-matters. Then, Peterborough (who on the field finished ninth then), were demoted to the fourth division. Guess who were reprieved then? Mansfield Town! Then, the Stags finished in 21th position (the first relegation spot) in the old third division. I still remember it as if it were yesterday, and not May 1968.

Using a bit of research on the last day of that season the Stags were 2 points clear of Grimsby and had a better goal average.
It was known that Peterborough would be automatically relegated so finishing 21st would be sufficient.
To be saved from relegation Grimsby needed to leapfrog the Stags by winning and hope the Stags lost and also to effectively turn round a FIVE goal deficit.
In the end Grimsby won their last game 3-2 and the Stags lost 3-0 so we clung onto our Division three status by the finest of margins. (Stags F51 A 67 Average = 0.761, Grimsby F52 A69 Average = 0.754)
Another goal conceded by the Stags or another Grimsby goal would have relegated the Stags.

This was before my time but does anyone of our let's say older generation recall this day and how it panned out?
How did our fans keep in touch of the state of play?, Were radio updates any good or too infrequent in 1968 or non existent? Did we need to wait until the final results were in and mathematics performed before we could breathe a sign of relief? How long was the wait?

In those days it wad transistor radios. Not a lot of local coverage so really only reliable scores were final scores. However in a large crowd reception was patchy to non existant. It depended which way the radio was pointing and indeed how the wind was blowing.
Such conditions made it difficult to hear particularly if surrounded by noisy crowds. Also this led to misinformation and rumour mongering. Lots of people 'in the know' who told you one thing as if it was Gospel and jhad ust happened ' They'd got a mate in reporters room who'd just heard ' Mostly just mischief or guess work. Information did get through though but it was a case of waiting until enough reliable people confirmed the scores.
Finally goal average was bugger to work out in you head after a few pint!! Not as simple as knowing before the game what the permutations were.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Sweden Stag » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:35 pm

Using a bit of research on the last day of that season the Stags were 2 points clear of Grimsby and had a better goal average.
It was known that Peterborough would be automatically relegated so finishing 21st would be sufficient.
To be saved from relegation Grimsby needed to leapfrog the Stags by winning and hope the Stags lost and also to effectively turn round a FIVE goal deficit.
In the end Grimsby won their last game 3-2 and the Stags lost 3-0 so we clung onto our Division three status by the finest of margins. (Stags F51 A 67 Average = 0.761, Grimsby F52 A69 Average = 0.754)
Another goal conceded by the Stags or another Grimsby goal would have relegated the Stags.

This was before my time but does anyone of our let's say older generation recall this day and how it panned out?
How did our fans keep in touch of the state of play?, Were radio updates any good or too infrequent in 1968 or non existent? Did we need to wait until the final results were in and mathematics performed before we could breathe a sign of relief? How long was the wait?

At that time, I checked Swedish newspapers and a pools magazine. Then, I came to the same conclusion as ST4GS did in his recent posting. Grimsby beat Swindon at home while the Stags lost at Bournemouth. When I saw the final table, I made the calculation and already then found out that another Grimsby goal scored or another one conceded by the Stags would have relegated the Stags. By that time, the three-point ruling didn't exist and if it had existed in May 1968, the Stags had gone instead of Grimsby as the Stags won twelve games then and the Mariners 14.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby part time pete » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:53 pm

From recollection as a 15 year old schoolboy, there was no real time coverage of the stags games. Radio Nottingham didn’t start broadcasting until a year later (1969).

I would have seen the final scores come through on the Grandstand teleprinter and then the BBC would then display the league table confirming Stags survival but would not known the timeline of goals during the day.

Looking back at that day’s football post (now on British Newspaper Archive) which I would have picked up from our local newsagent at 6.15pm on Saturday night I then read David Lowe’s report.
As has been said Stags lost 3-0, but the report said that we went 3-0 down on 65 minutes and says it was a bit nail biting with Stags have eight or nine players in penalty area for the majority of the time.
It goes on to say the Stuart Boam headed wide in a rare attack. What was interesting was we were looking at time wasting as we had a player booked for kicking the ball away, which was very rare in them days. In addition in injury time Bournemouth had a fourth goal disallowed.
Grimsby from the football post lead 2-1 at half time and won the game 3-2 but no info on when the goals were scored.

So that injury time disallowed goal saved us.

Martin’s Chad’s report might give us more info from Stan Searl.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Martin Shaw » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:39 pm

part time pete wrote:
Martin’s Chad’s report might give us more info from Stan Searl.

my scrapbook with all the reports for that season is out on loan at the moment so I cannot get it for you.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Martin Shaw » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:29 pm

Martin Shaw wrote:
part time pete wrote:
Martin’s Chad’s report might give us more info from Stan Searl.

my scrapbook with all the reports for that season is out on loan at the moment so I cannot get it for you.

Paul Taylor has kindly scanned the report of the final day of the season in 1967/68 from my scrapbook, and you can find it here:

https://stagsnet.net/vintage/reports/Bo ... 8_Chad.htm
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby stag861 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:25 am

Macca hearing is now early September. By then ups & downs from League 2 will be sorted so will they start the season on a minus points figure as it may be too late to relegate them.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby wink68 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:58 am

stag861 wrote:Macca hearing is now early September. By then ups & downs from League 2 will be sorted so will they start the season on a minus points figure as it may be too late to relegate them.

If they committed the offence in March why not have the hearing straight away so all clubs know where they stand. Thr EFL have backed themselves into a corner and have copped out big time by leaving the decision till September and docking point next season. Suppose they have history with this sort of thing when they waited to deduct Chesterfield loads of points leaving them one point above relegation which actually meant nothing.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby Martin Shaw » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:04 am

stag861 wrote:Macca hearing is now early September. By then ups & downs from League 2 will be sorted so will they start the season on a minus points figure as it may be too late to relegate them.

it is the hearing over a winding-up petition that has been adjourned until September
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53077859

Punishment from EFL is separate to that.
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby ST4GS » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:28 am

Sweden Stag wrote:Using a bit of research on the last day of that season the Stags were 2 points clear of Grimsby and had a better goal average.
It was known that Peterborough would be automatically relegated so finishing 21st would be sufficient.
To be saved from relegation Grimsby needed to leapfrog the Stags by winning and hope the Stags lost and also to effectively turn round a FIVE goal deficit.
In the end Grimsby won their last game 3-2 and the Stags lost 3-0 so we clung onto our Division three status by the finest of margins. (Stags F51 A 67 Average = 0.761, Grimsby F52 A69 Average = 0.754)
Another goal conceded by the Stags or another Grimsby goal would have relegated the Stags.

This was before my time but does anyone of our let's say older generation recall this day and how it panned out?
How did our fans keep in touch of the state of play?, Were radio updates any good or too infrequent in 1968 or non existent? Did we need to wait until the final results were in and mathematics performed before we could breathe a sign of relief? How long was the wait?

At that time, I checked Swedish newspapers and a pools magazine. Then, I came to the same conclusion as ST4GS did in his recent posting. Grimsby beat Swindon at home while the Stags lost at Bournemouth. When I saw the final table, I made the calculation and already then found out that another Grimsby goal scored or another one conceded by the Stags would have relegated the Stags. By that time, the three-point ruling didn't exist and if it had existed in May 1968, the Stags had gone instead of Grimsby as the Stags won twelve games then and the Mariners 14.


There are a few cases of big swings in the final tables depending on the points rules and/or points tie breaker rules:
In Stags 1978 Division two campaign Orient who finished 14th would have finished six places lower in 20th and been relegated if 3 points for a win was in force and Notts County would also have finished below Blackpool who would have been saved. (teams might have had to go for wins rather than draws on the final games if known in advance so things might have been different)

League Division Two end of season table for 1977-78 season
1 Bolton Wanderers 42 24 10 8 63 33 30 58
2 Southampton 42 22 13 7 70 39 31 57
3 Tottenham Hotspur 42 20 16 6 83 49 34 56
4 Brighton and Hove Albion 42 22 12 8 63 38 25 56
5 Blackburn Rovers 42 16 13 13 56 60 -4 45
6 Sunderland 42 14 16 12 67 59 8 44
7 Stoke City 42 16 10 16 53 49 4 42
8 Oldham Athletic 42 13 16 13 54 58 -4 42
9 Crystal Palace 42 13 15 14 50 47 3 41
10 Fulham 42 14 13 15 49 49 0 41
11 Burnley 42 15 10 17 56 64 -8 40
12 Sheffield United 42 16 8 18 62 73 -11 40
13 Luton Town 42 14 10 18 54 52 2 38
14 Orient 42 10 18 14 43 49 -6 38
15 Notts County 42 11 16 15 54 62 -8 38
16 Millwall 42 12 14 16 49 57 -8 38
17 Charlton Athletic 42 13 12 17 55 68 -13 38
18 Bristol Rovers 42 13 12 17 61 77 -16 38
19 Cardiff City 42 13 12 17 51 71 -20 38
20 Blackpool 42 12 13 17 59 60 -1 37
21 Mansfield Town 42 10 11 21 49 69 -20 31
22 Hull City 42 8 12 22 34 52 -18 28

There are dozens of cases of teams moving in our out of promotion or relegation places depending on 2 or 3 points for a win scenarios.
There are a few when goal average v goal difference would have had teams swapping positions.
The most famous one is the top flight title in 1989. This would have had a different outcome if goal average had been used instead of goal difference (and then goals scored).
Arsenal went to Liverpool on the final match requiring a two goal win by any margin and famously succeeded with a last minute winner.
If goal average was the tie breaker then Arsenal would have required a 5-0 win (or any five goal margin win) and would have fallen short.

League Division One end of season table for 1988-89 season
1 Arsenal 38 22 10 6 73 36 37 76
2 Liverpool 38 22 10 6 65 28 37 76
3 Nottingham Forest 38 17 13 8 64 43 21 64
4 Norwich City 38 17 11 10 48 45 3 62
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Re: Macclesfield Penalty

Postby tinman » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:41 am

I remember in the mid 70's after the final whistle at the Stags going down to Leeming Street and watching final results in the shop window :lol:
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