Players Released, Transfers & Loans 2020-2021

[bellwhiff]

Sure. Afford means being able to pay for without going into an unsustainable financial position. A salary cap isn’t the answer, better diligence is. It’s football communism.

There are two terms you have used in this thread.

Restriction of trade and Football communism?

I don’t understand what you mean, could you explain?

It’s pretty easy to grasp if you have a reasonable level of intelligence. Why should a club with greater resources be limited because another team hasn’t? Football by definition isn’t an equal sport. The whole point is to be better. If you can afford it, you should be able to spend it. Making everyone the same isn’t the way forward.

[Tippy Tappy Football]

"Salford City have signed Hibernian full-back Tom James on loan until the end of the season. The 24-year-old spent the first half of the season on loan at Wigan, scoring three goals in 20 League One games."

"Harrogate Town have signed Norwich City winger Simon Power. The former Republic of Ireland Under-21 international spent the first half of the season on loan with National League side King's Lynn. Harrogate have not disclosed the length of deal the 22-year-old has signed nor if there was a fee involved in the transfer."

[kevin kents tasce]

It’s pretty easy to grasp if you have a reasonable level of intelligence. Why should a club with greater resources be limited because another team hasn’t? Football by definition isn’t an equal sport. The whole point is to be better. If you can afford it, you should be able to spend it. Making everyone the same isn’t the way forward.

I’m fairly confident in my level of intelligence, which is why I might think it’s more complicated than that, albeit I am leaning to agree with you that teams who generate more should be able to spend more.

My worry is that this would create other problems in the game. If football was built on hard capitalism then the Stags would have certainly gone to the wall by now, even with JRs deep pockets.

Would you advocate the idea that Premier League clubs shouldn’t give handouts to teams further down the pyramid? Someone posted on here that we currently get about £800k a year through handouts.

Surely expecting handouts from more successful clubs is akin to a welfare system? Is this also football communism? The same logic applies to both circumstances, it you can afford it then spend it, if you can’t then don’t.

You didn’t address the restriction of trade comments either. Are the rules telling players that they can not earn a living from football?

Using Stockley as an example, he is still getting paid and only has to do half the work unless someone else signs him. Is this what you mean by football communism as we have a system where everyone gets paid even if they have nothing to do?

Another thought, if someone else does sign him, then does that mean a different player has to have his ability to earn restricted because there won’t be room in squad of his new club?

I’m not being obtuse here, I am genuinely interested in the discussion.

[bellwhiff]

It’s pretty easy to grasp if you have a reasonable level of intelligence. Why should a club with greater resources be limited because another team hasn’t? Football by definition isn’t an equal sport. The whole point is to be better. If you can afford it, you should be able to spend it. Making everyone the same isn’t the way forward.

I’m fairly confident in my level of intelligence, which is why I might think it’s more complicated than that, albeit I am leaning to agree with you that teams who generate more should be able to spend more.

My worry is that this would create other problems in the game. If football was built on hard capitalism then the Stags would have certainly gone to the wall by now, even with JRs deep pockets.

Would you advocate the idea that Premier League clubs shouldn’t give handouts to teams further down the pyramid? Someone posted on here that we currently get about £800k a year through handouts.

Surely expecting handouts from more successful clubs is akin to a welfare system? Is this also football communism? The same logic applies to both circumstances, it you can afford it then spend it, if you can’t then don’t.

You didn’t address the restriction of trade comments either. Are the rules telling players that they can not earn a living from football?

Using Stockley as an example, he is still getting paid and only has to do half the work unless someone else signs him. Is this what you mean by football communism as we have a system where everyone gets paid even if they have nothing to do?

Another thought, if someone else does sign him, then does that mean a different player has to have his ability to earn restricted because there won’t be room in squad of his new club?

I’m not being obtuse here, I am genuinely interested in the discussion.

It’s a restriction of trade because say the club generates millions from shirt sales. Their turnover is high. They should be allowed to spend their money.

You explain to me how Sunderland aren’t being restrained by being made to conform to the same budget as Burton or Accrington ?

[kevin kents tasce]

I agree on the Sunderland point. In principle the bigger earning clubs should be able to spend what they earn. Although Sunderland are not the best example as they did get themselves into a lot of trouble by committing to wages they couldn’t afford.

Are you able to offer your thoughts to my questions?

[NorthLondonStag]

The salary cap is a difficult one. The argument Belly makes is a good one for the reasons he’s given. However I’ve changed my mind in this and am probably in favour of a cap.

Without a cap then players have just milked the clubs for wages that they can’t afford. The effect of this is that there is a trickle up effect on wages. This makes the clubs all pay wages they either can’t afford (and then risk not fulfilling their fixtures) or rely on rich (and then not so rich) owners.

A wage cap system is far from perfect but it will make clubs sustainable and durable. That benefits all clubs not just our own. And remember it doesn’t stop clubs paying transfer fees or to promotion bonuses.

If you look at the accounts for a club like Mansfield the ‘loss’ is roughly eliminated if you reduce the wages to the cap. This could be critical for community clubs where they have no capital base to fund the losses.

Finally clubs can still make themselves attractive to the best players in other ways, which make the club more sustainable and don’t just line the players pockets. For instance training facilities. The wage cap also doesn’t include managers and coaches.

No system solves everything but on balance my view now is the wage cap is better than not having one.

[Rob]

The salary cap is a difficult one. The argument Belly makes is a good one for the reasons he’s given. However I’ve changed my mind in this and am probably in favour of a cap.

Without a cap then players have just milked the clubs for wages that they can’t afford. The effect of this is that there is a trickle up effect on wages. This makes the clubs all pay wages they either can’t afford (and then risk not fulfilling their fixtures) or rely on rich (and then not so rich) owners.

A wage cap system is far from perfect but it will make clubs sustainable and durable. That benefits all clubs not just our own. And remember it doesn’t stop clubs paying transfer fees or to promotion bonuses.

If you look at the accounts for a club like Mansfield the ‘loss’ is roughly eliminated if you reduce the wages to the cap. This could be critical for community clubs where they have no capital base to fund the losses.

Finally clubs can still make themselves attractive to the best players in other ways, which make the club more sustainable and don’t just line the players pockets. For instance training facilities. The wage cap also doesn’t include managers and coaches.

No system solves everything but on balance my view now is the wage cap is better than not having one.

I think the other thing you need to factor in is that the wage cap is set at a decent level and one which many clubs won't reach. I have no idea how many in each league are below the cap, but suspect the likes of Burton and Accrington fall well below the League 1 cap, meaning Sunderland probably do actually have a financial advantage over these clubs. However, I do have to asterisk that by saying I've not actually seen the wage bills versus salary cap comparisons.

[daddycool]

Is it the American NFL were they all have the same budgets to work with . The record of consecutive titles is two so it seems to give more teams a chance

[NorthLondonStag]

Is it the American NFL were they all have the same budgets to work with . The record of consecutive titles is two so it seems to give more teams a chance

I believe the NFL has a wage floor as well as a wage cap. The clubs are required to spend a minimum amount of their income on wages, as well as not exceeding a maximum.

They also have the ‘draft’ which (I think) effectively says that the worst teams (in reverse order) in the preceding year gets first call on the best players that are newly released from college. Then there’s a load of rules about trading places in the draft as well.

[part time pete]

Is it the American NFL were they all have the same budgets to work with . The record of consecutive titles is two so it seems to give more teams a chance

The main difference with the NFL is that there is no relegation.

Then there is the ‘draft’ which gives the worse teams the first pick of the best young players.

This is to make the competition competitive so that each team doesn’t win every year.

[NorthLondonStag]

And in answer to Belly’s point as to what to do with the money, assuming it gets spent on wages is why we have got into that mess in the first place.

Businesses make money all the time and either invest in infrastructure or (fans hate this for lots of reasons) pay a dividend to the owners. They don’t up everyone’s wages to try and spend all the money.

Provided you’ve got responsible owners then paying a responsible dividend isn’t necessarily a bad thing. A business that pays dividends can attract long term capital investment on a sustainable basis and then maybe we can move towards self sustainable clubs rather than relying on rich benefactors or clubs going bust.

The hard bit in football is the responsible owners paying responsible dividends.

[Shep]

Is it the American NFL were they all have the same budgets to work with . The record of consecutive titles is two so it seems to give more teams a chance

The NBA has a salary cap but I believe a team can spend more if they wish, but then they get hit with a fine if they go over so if a team feels like they want to try and buy the league, they can but it’s going to come at an additional cost.

[RAFstag]

Back to the subject, any transfers worth talking about rather than the American business which relates nothing to our club or the industry.

[daddycool]

Back to the subject, any transfers worth talking about rather than the American business which relates nothing to our club or the industry.

Wrist slapped ,will not happen again

[lifestags]

Barrow signed a couple of good players yesterday, Tom Davies from Bristol R and Ollie Banks from Tranmere.

[Brough]

Back to the subject, any transfers worth talking about rather than the American business which relates nothing to our club or the industry.

I’m glad someone said it zzz

[bellwhiff]

And in answer to Belly’s point as to what to do with the money, assuming it gets spent on wages is why we have got into that mess in the first place.

Businesses make money all the time and either invest in infrastructure or (fans hate this for lots of reasons) pay a dividend to the owners. They don’t up everyone’s wages to try and spend all the money.

Provided you’ve got responsible owners then paying a responsible dividend isn’t necessarily a bad thing. A business that pays dividends can attract long term capital investment on a sustainable basis and then maybe we can move towards self sustainable clubs rather than relying on rich benefactors or clubs going bust.

The hard bit in football is the responsible owners paying responsible dividends.

So the issue isn’t the spending of funds, it’s the oversight to stop overspending. That’s where the pressure point on clubs should be. All teams are different.

[bellwhiff]

I agree on the Sunderland point. In principle the bigger earning clubs should be able to spend what they earn. Although Sunderland are not the best example as they did get themselves into a lot of trouble by committing to wages they couldn’t afford.

Are you able to offer your thoughts to my questions?

Clarify them and I’ll do my best.

[The One]

Just read on Grimsby site Giles Coke training with them

[yorkshire stag]

Just read on Grimsby site Giles Coke training with them

lol owd Coaster Coke lol

[natfromboza]

Just read on Grimsby site Giles Coke training with them

lol owd Coaster Coke lol

Not sure he's the type of player for a relegation battle!!

[yorkshire stag]

Just read on Grimsby site Giles Coke training with them

lol owd Coaster Coke lol

Not sure he's the type of player for a relegation battle!!

absolutely agree mate

[Tippy Tappy Football]

From BBC

"League Two club Forest Green Rovers have signed Charlton Athletic striker Josh Davison on loan until the end of the season. The 21-year-old had a spell with Woking earlier in the campaign, scoring three goals in 11 National League outings. Davison has featured 12 times for Charlton since making his senior debut in October 2019, netting once. "He is a player we have tracked for a while," Rovers director of football Rich Hughes told the club website. "He is an honest forward player with energy and power who shows a desire to compete and press from the front"

"Walsall have made their second signing of the January transfer window by bringing in striker Jayden Reid on loan from Championship side Birmingham City for the rest of the season. Reid, 19, follows teenage Aston Villa winger Tyreik Wright to Bescot. Reid, who made four post-lockdown substitute appearances last season for Blues in July, has already been out on loan once this season. He failed to score in 12 appearances for Walsall's League Two rivals Barrow. Most of those were off the bench, including the 2-2 draw with Walsall at Holker Street in October in only his second game."

"Crewe Alexandra captain Perry Ng has signed for Cardiff City on a deal running until the summer of 2024. Cardiff say the 24-year-old right-back has signed for an undisclosed fee. It is understood the Championship side will pay League One Crewe an initial £350,000, which could rise to £500,000 for the Liverpool-born star. Railwaymen manager David Artell had labelled Cardiff's initial offer "disgusting" but said this week the deal is "good for both clubs".

From Crewe
"Perry Ng became a regular under manager David Artell and would later replace the departing George Ray as captain in 2019 after enjoying his most consistent season for the club. He swept the board as the club’s Player-of-the-Season with both his team-mates and supporters voting him as their top performer. His exceptional form over 49 games also saw him included in the EFL team of the year for League Two. In his debut season as captain, he led Crewe Alexandra to automatic promotion and a return to League One. Overall, Ng made 185 appearances for Crewe Alexandra, scoring 7 times."

[kevin kents tasce]

I agree on the Sunderland point. In principle the bigger earning clubs should be able to spend what they earn. Although Sunderland are not the best example as they did get themselves into a lot of trouble by committing to wages they couldn’t afford.

Are you able to offer your thoughts to my questions?

Clarify them and I’ll do my best.

I’m not sure what needs clarification. All of my questions were punctuated with a question mark, and to list them again would lose the context of why they were asked.

They are mostly aimed at understanding what you mean by football communism as it’s a term you use occasionally as a negative, but it doesn’t really make sense when I try and understand your perspective.

If I’m honest I think you have thrown out some politically emotive term, but haven’t really thought through what you mean by it.

This should be fairly easy to answer as you said the term should be simple for anyone of reasonable intelligence to understand.

[my name is jonas]

Barrow signed a couple of good players yesterday, Tom Davies from Bristol R and Ollie Banks from Tranmere.

Also signed Jamie Devitt today, some decent signings they’ve made there.