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Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby gazza1988 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

We've gone from dominating most games with good football (we are never going to dominate them all) to defending for our lives from the 1st kick, no matter the opposition.

Let's get real here, who was the last side to finish in the top 3 who spent the whole season trying to defend all game and nick a goal? That's what relegation threatened teams do, just to get enough points to stay up.

To get the same points as 7th last season we need 1.76 points per game. Or a 59% win percentage.

To get the same points total as last season we now need 1.93 points a game. Or a 64% win percentage.

To get the same points as 3rd last season we need 2.03 points per game. Or a win percent of 68%.

Quick show of hands, who thinks we will meet any of those targets? I don't.

The league is alot tighter this year so those points totals may be higher than what is needed this year. At this stage last season Lincoln were top and 6 points clear of the play offs, this season FGR are top and 1 point off the play offs. We had 28 points, a +12 goal difference, conceded 13 in 17 games, lost 1, occupying 7th in the league.

What fans problem is its the same chuffing squad. We lost our top goalscorer, granted, but we've brought in cook and Maynard. I was concerned early on when he couldn't get Ben Turner to sign who ended up at a mid table conference club.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby tillydog123 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:19 am

Does not look good for Stags when players write this
I agree with Bishop and of all the clubs he has played for with a long and very successful career it would be sad for him to leave MTFC with these thoughts
Sorry Bishop on behalf of all loyal fans and yes we all feel the pain of last season but life goes on and it is only a game although some people think it is more than that sadly
COYS
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Gruff » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:21 am

Ok... the football isn't great, but yesterday they did what they had to do.
JR would have witnessed the performance, and will no doubt question the style of play etc.

Our home form is very poor, but if the players feel they are walking into a toxic atmosphere where they will get castigated for any mistake, they will not perform well. It's like you doing your job and getting hammered by the boss every time you mess up. In the end, you try to do just enough to keep out of trouble.

Social media and websites are a platform for opinion, and if people voice their opinions on it and not everybody agrees, that's a fact. I believe that there is a toxic atmosphere at home games, and Bishop's opinion is a valid as all of those above.

We all need to put our big boy pants on (players, supporters, manager etc.) and get the club moving in the right direction. If you don't like the style of football vote with your feet...

Regarding his comments about scapegoats, just look at the posts about Conrad on this board during the first few weeks of the season, and yet due to poor performances by the team, he is actually keeping us in games.... Gawd help him if he makes a mistake though, as it will all be back again.

Everybody needs to grow some, but I fully expect the repercussions of Bishop's post will be that he will start becoming a focus of attention for the home fans because he had the balls to stand up and call them out.

Anyway, carry on defending the loyal supporters of the club who feel it's ok to boo a team that has just done their job (not well), got the club £36,000, and progressed to the next round of the FA Cup.

Just an opinion.....
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Amber Andy » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:32 am

WVStag wrote:In all honesty, Bishop should put his big boy pants on and allow themselves as players and more importantly the manager to account for this seasons showings on the pitch.

Comments like what Dempster received about f'ing off and dying are obviously filed under abuse, which is unacceptable and normal people don't make those comments. However, the booing, the Dempster out chance, the criticism of players/managers ineptitude at full time isn't out of place in my book. They are the soundings off of (rightly) angry fans who have forked out 25 quid to see utter toss yet again from their team.

They are all absolutely miles off it. Bishop thinks it's because of last season, Broughton walked off yesterday shaking his head at the booing, Dempster walked off with hands out as if to ask 'why are you booing?'... are they that clueless? Do they genuinely believe that they're doing alright and performances and results improving? Baffling.

The usual suspects will give it the old 'gEt BeHinD tHe TeAm, CaLL yOuRsElF a FaN' but that's as stupid as Bishop's ramblings. Booing your own team is not as counter-productive as people think. Fans are allowed after this abomination of a season's start to voice there opinion. The product we are paying for is flipping dreadful. Sorry to say, but for the people that like to think for themselves, we aren't prepared to just sing and clap along come what may. Without criticism, you don't progress. Booing after a win (as someone earlier mentioned in the thread) isn't normal. But that doesn't mean it's unacceptable. Shocking thought.

I think we should take note of what Bishop is saying. He is a senior pro who has vast experience. If he is saying the booing and comments are affecting performances, then let's act on that. Stop the booing.

Also you need to understand how the booing affects the rest of the fans. It simply makes it a toxic atmosphere and not a place you want to come back too. Children in particular. The team wins and some of the fans boo. Strange!
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby adamstag » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:39 am

Amber Andy wrote:
WVStag wrote:In all honesty, Bishop should put his big boy pants on and allow themselves as players and more importantly the manager to account for this seasons showings on the pitch.

Comments like what Dempster received about f'ing off and dying are obviously filed under abuse, which is unacceptable and normal people don't make those comments. However, the booing, the Dempster out chance, the criticism of players/managers ineptitude at full time isn't out of place in my book. They are the soundings off of (rightly) angry fans who have forked out 25 quid to see utter toss yet again from their team.

They are all absolutely miles off it. Bishop thinks it's because of last season, Broughton walked off yesterday shaking his head at the booing, Dempster walked off with hands out as if to ask 'why are you booing?'... are they that clueless? Do they genuinely believe that they're doing alright and performances and results improving? Baffling.

The usual suspects will give it the old 'gEt BeHinD tHe TeAm, CaLL yOuRsElF a FaN' but that's as stupid as Bishop's ramblings. Booing your own team is not as counter-productive as people think. Fans are allowed after this abomination of a season's start to voice there opinion. The product we are paying for is flipping dreadful. Sorry to say, but for the people that like to think for themselves, we aren't prepared to just sing and clap along come what may. Without criticism, you don't progress. Booing after a win (as someone earlier mentioned in the thread) isn't normal. But that doesn't mean it's unacceptable. Shocking thought.

I think we should take note of what Bishop is saying. He is a senior pro who has vast experience. If he is saying the booing and comments are affecting performances, then let's act on that. Stop the booing.

Also you need to understand how the booing affects the rest of the fans. It simply makes it a toxic atmosphere and not a place you want to come back too. Children in particular. The team wins and some of the fans boo. Strange!


So should everyone just not do anything and sit on their hands?

People boo at football matches, Southampton had it yesterday after their latest loss

That someone should suggest no-one boos is a rather simplistic view
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby NorthLondonStag » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:43 am

I don’t really understand the booing, especially when we’ve won. My son is excited that we are one game away from the third round and maybe a premiership team. He didn’t really understand the boos at the end.
Come on here and vent if you like during or after the game but it’s not helpful to the team to do it at the game.
Imagine you were at work and every time you made a slight mistake all your colleagues/customers bood you. Probably wouldn’t make you feel so great. And wouldn’t improve your performance.
I haven’t done the maths but it’s no surprise that our away form seems better recently than home (I think).
Let’s go to Macclesfield and do as we did at Walsall and Grimsby and get behind the team in numbers and in spirit.
If there’s one team we can turn over at the moment it’s Macclesfield.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby BH_Stag » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:47 am

Amber Andy wrote:
WVStag wrote:In all honesty, Bishop should put his big boy pants on and allow themselves as players and more importantly the manager to account for this seasons showings on the pitch.

Comments like what Dempster received about f'ing off and dying are obviously filed under abuse, which is unacceptable and normal people don't make those comments. However, the booing, the Dempster out chance, the criticism of players/managers ineptitude at full time isn't out of place in my book. They are the soundings off of (rightly) angry fans who have forked out 25 quid to see utter toss yet again from their team.

They are all absolutely miles off it. Bishop thinks it's because of last season, Broughton walked off yesterday shaking his head at the booing, Dempster walked off with hands out as if to ask 'why are you booing?'... are they that clueless? Do they genuinely believe that they're doing alright and performances and results improving? Baffling.

The usual suspects will give it the old 'gEt BeHinD tHe TeAm, CaLL yOuRsElF a FaN' but that's as stupid as Bishop's ramblings. Booing your own team is not as counter-productive as people think. Fans are allowed after this abomination of a season's start to voice there opinion. The product we are paying for is flipping dreadful. Sorry to say, but for the people that like to think for themselves, we aren't prepared to just sing and clap along come what may. Without criticism, you don't progress. Booing after a win (as someone earlier mentioned in the thread) isn't normal. But that doesn't mean it's unacceptable. Shocking thought.

I think we should take note of what Bishop is saying. He is a senior pro who has vast experience. If he is saying the booing and comments are affecting performances, then let's act on that. Stop the booing.

Also you need to understand how the booing affects the rest of the fans. It simply makes it a toxic atmosphere and not a place you want to come back too. Children in particular. The team wins and some of the fans boo. Strange!


The boo’ing isn’t just a flippant result off the back of one game. It’s a build up of numerous poor results and performances at home. Bishop has a lot of experience yes, but I’d have thought he’d be a bit thicker skinned and would be wise to the fact that the reaction is down to what we have seen THIS year. To put it down to last seasons ending is ridiculous, but maybe that’s just convenient for him considering he’s been poor all season.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby WVStag » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:51 am

Amber Andy wrote:
WVStag wrote:In all honesty, Bishop should put his big boy pants on and allow themselves as players and more importantly the manager to account for this seasons showings on the pitch.

Comments like what Dempster received about f'ing off and dying are obviously filed under abuse, which is unacceptable and normal people don't make those comments. However, the booing, the Dempster out chance, the criticism of players/managers ineptitude at full time isn't out of place in my book. They are the soundings off of (rightly) angry fans who have forked out 25 quid to see utter toss yet again from their team.

They are all absolutely miles off it. Bishop thinks it's because of last season, Broughton walked off yesterday shaking his head at the booing, Dempster walked off with hands out as if to ask 'why are you booing?'... are they that clueless? Do they genuinely believe that they're doing alright and performances and results improving? Baffling.

The usual suspects will give it the old 'gEt BeHinD tHe TeAm, CaLL yOuRsElF a FaN' but that's as stupid as Bishop's ramblings. Booing your own team is not as counter-productive as people think. Fans are allowed after this abomination of a season's start to voice there opinion. The product we are paying for is flipping dreadful. Sorry to say, but for the people that like to think for themselves, we aren't prepared to just sing and clap along come what may. Without criticism, you don't progress. Booing after a win (as someone earlier mentioned in the thread) isn't normal. But that doesn't mean it's unacceptable. Shocking thought.

I think we should take note of what Bishop is saying. He is a senior pro who has vast experience. If he is saying the booing and comments are affecting performances, then let's act on that. Stop the booing.

Also you need to understand how the booing affects the rest of the fans. It simply makes it a toxic atmosphere and not a place you want to come back too. Children in particular. The team wins and some of the fans boo. Strange!



So Bishop, being a senior pro, means that he is right all the time because of his experience? I know (EDIT: I don't know... but I REALLY hope) you're not silly enough to insinuate that, when he is so glaringly talking out his arse with that post he put on facebook.

Re: your second point... so because the booing and criticism upsets some people and might stop kids coming back, I should keep my mouth shut and clap along? Such a weird angle. Forgot I was going to a cinema and not a football match.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby gazza1988 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:56 am

Home table: we are 20th with 9 games, 2 wins, 2 draws and 5 defeats. GF 15, GA 16. PTS 8

Away table: we are 5th with 8 games, 3 wins, 3 draws and 2 defeats. GF 11 GA 9. PTS 12

This Saturday we travel to Macclesfield, who have lost one game at home all season.

Source: https://www.soccerstats.com/homeaway.as ... e=england4
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby MTFCMusings » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:58 am

Well, given Bish and his wife seem to be very pally with the Radfords, it would seem the message must definitely be getting through to the boardroom. There’s a very simple way to alter the toxic home atmosphere, and has been for the last two months.

Bish is probably just worried that a new manager won’t give him such an easy ride as the current one as to the level of his performances for the last seven months.

Given the level of performances at home this season, they are very lucky 2000 paid to go and watch at al because I couldn’t motivate myself. Very soon there will be few left in the ground to boo.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby KirkbyStag2 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:08 pm

I don't think the fans are booing because of last season, I think the booing is a accumulation of this seasons home results,

Stags 2-2 Morecambe (Stags lost on penalties)
Stags 2-2 Morecambe
Stags 2-3 Orient
Stags 0-0 Stevenage
Stags 0-4 Cambridge
Stags 0-1 Plymouth
Stags 1-2 Salford
Stags 2-3 Colchester

Despite a Top 3 budget, only 2 teams have gained less points at home this season than Stags, and they (Walsall & Morecambe) are in the bottom 3.

Stags,
11 points behind top of the table
7 points from bottom of the table

:coys:
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Amber Andy » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:17 pm

BH_Stag wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:
WVStag wrote:In all honesty, Bishop should put his big boy pants on and allow themselves as players and more importantly the manager to account for this seasons showings on the pitch.

Comments like what Dempster received about f'ing off and dying are obviously filed under abuse, which is unacceptable and normal people don't make those comments. However, the booing, the Dempster out chance, the criticism of players/managers ineptitude at full time isn't out of place in my book. They are the soundings off of (rightly) angry fans who have forked out 25 quid to see utter toss yet again from their team.

They are all absolutely miles off it. Bishop thinks it's because of last season, Broughton walked off yesterday shaking his head at the booing, Dempster walked off with hands out as if to ask 'why are you booing?'... are they that clueless? Do they genuinely believe that they're doing alright and performances and results improving? Baffling.

The usual suspects will give it the old 'gEt BeHinD tHe TeAm, CaLL yOuRsElF a FaN' but that's as stupid as Bishop's ramblings. Booing your own team is not as counter-productive as people think. Fans are allowed after this abomination of a season's start to voice there opinion. The product we are paying for is flipping dreadful. Sorry to say, but for the people that like to think for themselves, we aren't prepared to just sing and clap along come what may. Without criticism, you don't progress. Booing after a win (as someone earlier mentioned in the thread) isn't normal. But that doesn't mean it's unacceptable. Shocking thought.

I think we should take note of what Bishop is saying. He is a senior pro who has vast experience. If he is saying the booing and comments are affecting performances, then let's act on that. Stop the booing.

Also you need to understand how the booing affects the rest of the fans. It simply makes it a toxic atmosphere and not a place you want to come back too. Children in particular. The team wins and some of the fans boo. Strange!


The boo’ing isn’t just a flippant result off the back of one game. It’s a build up of numerous poor results and performances at home. Bishop has a lot of experience yes, but I’d have thought he’d be a bit thicker skinned and would be wise to the fact that the reaction is down to what we have seen THIS year. To put it down to last seasons ending is ridiculous, but maybe that’s just convenient for him considering he’s been poor all season.

Your booing is NOT helping the club. Booing makes the atmosphere toxic.

Best to vent your frustrations on here.

None of us are happy.

The board made a horrendous mistake in sacking DF and compounded it by appointing JD.

By your logic I should shout and throw insults towards the players all match long and make it uncomfortable for them and worse still the guy next to me , who has brought his child for a family afternoon out.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Chrisuknottm » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:20 pm

KirkbyStag2 wrote:I don't think the fans are booing because of last season, I think the booing is a accumulation of this seasons home results,

Stags 2-2 Morecambe (Stags lost on penalties)
Stags 2-2 Morecambe
Stags 2-3 Orient
Stags 0-0 Stevenage
Stags 0-4 Cambridge
Stags 0-1 Plymouth
Stags 1-2 Salford
Stags 2-3 Colchester

Despite a Top 3 budget, only 2 teams have gained less points at home this season than Stags, and they (Walsall & Morecambe) are in the bottom 3.

Stags,
11 points behind top of the table
7 points from bottom of the table

:coys:


And the fact that the actual performances have been dross.....so defensive as a first option.....and that the manager seems totally out of his depth. We won yesterday but everyone on the Forum has expressed their dissatisfaction with how we set up ..played.. and how long it took to change things. So the win actually wasn't everything was it....
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Jamie » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:31 pm

Amber Andy. Given the booing happened after the game I dont see how it affected the performance what so ever. If the players are down this week then the manager needs to pick them back up. Or better still perhaps as a senior pro Bish could have a word with his gaffer and ask why they set up and play so defensively.

Also as someone else said. How else do we express our displeasure as such negativity from our manager?

The only way this will change now is either JD leaving or waking up to the fact that his negative approach is going to cost him his job sooner rather than later. Grow some balls man and go for it. You lack of desire to do anything other than scrapping a win is blowing the best chance you may ever get to manage a professional club. Its now or never...
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Jamie » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:33 pm

Also agree with the points about Bish. He was very poor yesterday, Tomo was taken off but had a much better game. Bish also didnt cover himself in glory with his spat with their player. Yes the fans weren't great yesterday but neither were you. Blaming us for your failures, both last season but mainly this, is ridiculous.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby EdwinstoweStag » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:57 pm

wardy12345 wrote:Booing players is never good, but it would be good if one of the players came and watched the game in the upper west stand then they would understand why the fans are getting so upset.


None of us handle disappointment gladly, but booing OUR team off is moronic.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby cassellswasmagic » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:24 pm

If we were losing playing terrific football nobody would boo, I think it’s because it’s boring negative and aimless football that folk are booing. I’ve never agreed with booing but can understand why paying customers do it.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby victor A block » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:04 pm

Bishop is wrong on a few counts.
This isn't about last year. We came close but just missed out.
Its all about THIS year and being a team resembling the one that spent a couple of years avoiding relegation in the years before we hit the conference. The difference is, this team probably cost ten times more.
The frustration builds with a contradiction in terms from the owners. Project promotion? With Dempster? Really? If they are keeping him, then maybe a little more honesty with objectives would cut some ice. In reality with yesterdays performance, had it been in the league we would have come away with nothing, regardless of which of the other 23 teams we would have played.
Fans are disillusioned..we are a million miles off competing. The manager is running scared and hopelessly out his depth and although most fans would like to see a change the majority I think feel sorry for him and the situation he is in. That anger can easily translate to the owners and board, who must be watching different games.
I don't agree with the personal insults and although I didn't boo yesterday, I fully understand it. It was dire.
Oh .. and one final thing Neil Bishop..you're not well placed to be throwing stones, when your personal performances this season suggest last season should have been your swansong.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby MTFCMusings » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:09 pm

Also interesting he’s posted it on Facebook, where he can choose who sees it, rather than on twitter, win anyone can reply.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Hjeldefan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:25 pm

Considering we have a top 3 budget and are closer to the bottom than the top I actually think the atmosphere at home has been fairly positive considering. Even when we got spanked 4-0 at home to Cambridge there were more shrugs than boos. Maybe Bish should have a think why fans are unhappy rather than blaming the fans for our awful home form...He is paid enough.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby No Breaks Allowed » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:54 pm

I wasn’t at game yesterday, but even I know that booing players off wasn’t anything to do with last seasons disappointment of missing out on promotion! It down to what Dempster has turned us into... Get rid of Dempster and all this goes away
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby arsene wengers coat » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:16 pm

I wasn't at yesterday's game, so can't comment about boos.

But last weekend when we pulled a goal back with stoppage time to go, I was shocked at the lack of will shown from the fans.

In seasons gone, the QLE would have tried to suck the ball in to the net for the equaliser, but it was just quiet resignation. No 12th Man, as they say.

The booing at least shows people care. The fact that Bishop has responded shows he and the players care.

People don't like how we're doing at the moment. It makes home games a chore, and can make this website quite aggressive, because people have quite polarised opinions on things.

The only way of improving the atmosphere is if performance levels and results improve. The comment about using it to bind the players and make it a siege mentality could work.

It'll be a difficult road back from this, booing a win is unhealthy and unheard-of. I always find the away support is top class.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby EdwinstoweStag » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:32 pm

Bishop was my Play of the Season last year. Sure, he lost his edge in the second half and, at his age, should that be a surprise? This year, he has lost another yard of pace in his legs. Trouble is, his legs haven’t told his brain. He is regularly over-reaching and consequently more-often-than-not he frequently loses his player, gets frustrated, the lunges about in a way that will get him a collection of cards before the season ends.
Against Chorley, he allowed one of their players to rile him and he wasted too much time and energy “having a go” at him, whilst neglecting his role. He just needed to ask the lad how much he was paid and offer to lend him a few quid!
Neal Bishop is still totally committed and he has been an excellent acquisition. However, he needs resting if we are to get the best out of him, for what I suspect will be his last season as a player.
I’d like to see the club find him a coaching role - UNDER AN EXPERIENCED MANAGER, as I reckon he could well turn out to be a better manager than the present incumbent.
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Hjeldefan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:47 pm

EdwinstoweStag wrote:Bishop was my Play of the Season last year. Sure, he lost his edge in the second half and, at his age, should that be a surprise? This year, he has lost another yard of pace in his legs. Trouble is, his legs haven’t told his brain. He is regularly over-reaching and consequently more-often-than-not he frequently loses his player, gets frustrated, the lunges about in a way that will get him a collection of cards before the season ends.
Against Chorley, he allowed one of their players to rile him and he wasted too much time and energy “having a go” at him, whilst neglecting his role. He just needed to ask the lad how much he was paid and offer to lend him a few quid!
Neal Bishop is still totally committed and he has been an excellent acquisition. However, he needs resting if we are to get the best out of him, for what I suspect will be his last season as a player.
I’d like to see the club find him a coaching role - UNDER AN EXPERIENCED MANAGER, as I reckon he could well turn out to be a better manager than the present incumbent.

That wouldn't be hard :lol:
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Re: Bishop speaks out over fans’ abuse at home

Postby Amber Andy » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:53 pm

Jamie wrote:Amber Andy. Given the booing happened after the game I dont see how it affected the performance what so ever. If the players are down this week then the manager needs to pick them back up. Or better still perhaps as a senior pro Bish could have a word with his gaffer and ask why they set up and play so defensively.

Also as someone else said. How else do we express our displeasure as such negativity from our manager?

The only way this will change now is either JD leaving or waking up to the fact that his negative approach is going to cost him his job sooner rather than later. Grow some balls man and go for it. You lack of desire to do anything other than scrapping a win is blowing the best chance you may ever get to manage a professional club. Its now or never...

Jamie the toxic remarks started early in the game. It's not just the booing.

The booing fans are using it as their way of getting JR to sack the manager. To me it's similar to a petulant child who can't get their own way. It spoils it for all the rest.

I'm far from happy how things are going. I'm sure the Radfords are well aware that the majority of fans are. It's time to stop the booing.

It's not just that though is it Jamie, managers and players talk to each other. So when we are trying to recruit our much needed midfielder or new manager, it could be a case of don't go there, the crowd quickly turn if things arnt right. Or they take a lot of pleasing that lot.

Some will say well if the money's right they will come. So that means JR has to dig deeper into his pockets. I personally don't think it's always a money issue. The striker we tried to sign, who went to Coventry instead and scored a shed load of goals, didn't come because of the state of our ground!
Amber Andy
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