{ the forum }
 
An independent supporters' website dedicated to Mansfield Town FC

Bury FC Courtcase

Discuss all things Stags and Football League Two, and share stuff using our BBCodes.
Forum rules
Please read the Posting Rules before participating. Posting on the forums is subject to adhering to these.
Also, see the Guidelines for Posting. Moderators may sometimes tidy posts which do not follow these customs.

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:42 pm

Debbie Jevans confirms that any rogue or charlatan can buy a football league club mid-season and the EFL has no power to do anything at all except ask for some proof of funding which the rogue/charlatan can ignore for the remaining 5/6 months of the season. Incredible incompetence by the EFL.
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby part time pete » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:40 pm

The main issue is that any charlatan or rogue can buy any company, make short term money and then collapse the company.

As long as the rogue isn’t barred from being a director then by law anybody can buy a company and that is the main problem and that’s why I have sympathy for the EFL.
Can we play Accrington Stanley every week.
part time pete
Prediction League Manager
 
Posts: 6136
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:39 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby kwambo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:59 pm

Nice touch by Chichester. Have announced that they are going to donate some of the money received to the appropriate organisation trying to keep bury afloat
kwambo
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 859
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:14 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:16 pm

Still listening to the Commons Select Committee

Greg Clarke, Chairman of FA (Chairman of EFL from 2010-2016), admits he finds the football creditors rule morally very difficult. The only defence is that if you pay the players then the club stays in existence and so people keep turning up to watch.

The EFL voted through the Salary Cost Management Protocol and Financial Fair Play in 2011. Have only had two administrations since - Port Vale and Coventry City. They took the view that getting rid of the football creditors rule would cause more insolvencies in football clubs. Discussed this on an annual basis.

Damian Collins (Chair) - Disagreed that the football creditors rule cause more insolvencies in football. It makes no difference. It just means that if a club goes into administration then unsecured creditors are treated equally. It might also make the players think twice about signing for a club in financial difficulty. An owner could be subsidising the payment of players' wages on not paying the security firm.

Greg Clarke - The SCMP/Financial Fair Play Rules were very successful. They were broken three times and we sued all three clubs. One paid £54 million in damages and the other two settled. In football, there will always be chancers who try to break the rules and you have to take them on.

Damian Collins: Wage/Turnover Ratios from Deloittes Report for 2016-2017 said average Championship wage/turnover ratio was 101%, League 1 87% and League 2 73%.

Debbie Jevans: We are confident clubs are working within the parameters.

Damian Collins: What info do they give you? What accounts do they provide?

Debbie Jevans: If they do not comply then they are under a transfer embargo. I will come back to you on Deloitte's figures. Bury FC was complying with financial requirements under Stewart Day but did not comply at all under Steve Dale.

Damian Collins: It seems that the rules that are there are not really enforced. The EFL needs to enforce its own rules.

Debbie Jevans: They are enforced because one club is no longer a member of the league. Lessons have been learnt and there appears to be an appetite for change. I believe there is a change in mindset. We need to control costs by way of looking at players' salaries and agents' fees.

Damian Collins: One of the lessons to be learnt is that the league should enforce its own rules.The EFL should enforce its own rules. How could a club like Bury be insolvent but still complying with the SCMP? If a club goes bust it is because it has spent too much money. The point of the rules is to stop these things happening. The only rule that seems to be enforced is that you either come out of administration or go out of the league. Fans of Bury FC will think that the EFL has failed in its duty.

Damian Collins (Chair): You do not need a QC to tell you that if you let someone buy a football club without proof of funding that you are storing up trouble for the future. You don't need a review to tell you that if clubs are not complying with the rules as they stand at the moment, that are there to keep them on the straight and narrow, then there is going to be a problem. One thing that should be part of the review is why the EFL decided not to enforce its own rules."
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:27 pm

part time pete wrote:The main issue is that any charlatan or rogue can buy any company, make short term money and then collapse the company.

As long as the rogue isn’t barred from being a director then by law anybody can buy a company and that is the main problem and that’s why I have sympathy for the EFL.


They could have easily changed their rules Pete to stop this happening by requiring prior approval of any new owner otherwise consent to play in the league can be immediately withdrawn. Nobody would then buy a football club without firstly making sure they had EFL consent although a rogue/charlatan/chancer who is only paying a £1 may take the risk and just try and blag his way through. The EFL in that case though should just suspend fixtures and require 7/14 days for all info to be provided otherwise you are expelled.

If the rogue/charlatan/chances was just after cash/assets then he might not be bothered about the club being chucked out.

A better solution would be for the EFL to have a golden share in every club in the EFL which gives them the right to take control of the club in certain circumstances and to then sell the club to a new owner within 2/3 weeks. If no new owner comes forward then the club is expelled and an Independent Regulator oversees the winding up of the football club including possibly selling assets to a new phoenix club. The new owner would be last in the queue for payment as a shareholder.

The EFL should also have rules preventing club's grounds being used as security for loans unless the money is spent on capital expenditure such as building a new stand or improving the ground.
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:28 pm

There are lots of businesses where you are not allowed to buy the business/company without appropriate consents.
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:52 pm

This was the big shocker today. Greg Clarke, Chairman of the FA, admitted that the FA did not get involved with Bury until 4 weeks ago after the club had gone out of existence. He points out that the FA is a stakeholder organisation run for its stakeholders. The leagues write their own rules and enforce them and the FA does not get involved.

Greg Clarke admitted that he feels a moral responsibility but it is not the role of the FA to enforce the EFL's rules and it does not have the power to do so.

Historically football has been suffered due to lack of co-operation between the leagues and the FA. We need to work together to devbelop a set up of joined up rules.

Damian Collins: Does the EFL actually check the estimated turnover submitted by clubs in their SCMPs? Some clubs have not even filed their own accounts. If the clubs are self declaring then there is a good chance the estimates submitted could be wrong.
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby chip63 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:21 pm

Winding up order has been adjourned again.
Bury,s lawyers think they've paid too much tax :shock:

I didn't think they'd payed any.
chip63
Assistant Manager
Assistant Manager
 
Posts: 1337
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:01 am

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Billy the fish » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:39 pm

Tippy Tappy Football wrote:This was the big shocker today. Greg Clarke, Chairman of the FA, admitted that the FA did not get involved with Bury until 4 weeks ago after the club had gone out of existence. He points out that the FA is a stakeholder organisation run for its stakeholders. The leagues write their own rules and enforce them and the FA does not get involved.

Greg Clarke admitted that he feels a moral responsibility but it is not the role of the FA to enforce the EFL's rules and it does not have the power to do so.

Historically football has been suffered due to lack of co-operation between the leagues and the FA. We need to work together to devbelop a set up of joined up rules.

Damian Collins: Does the EFL actually check the estimated turnover submitted by clubs in their SCMPs? Some clubs have not even filed their own accounts. If the clubs are self declaring then there is a good chance the estimates submitted could be wrong.


So who actually are stakeholders ?? The clubs ?? Individuals ( without conflict of interest ) ??
User avatar
Billy the fish
Assistant Manager
Assistant Manager
 
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby I am Spartacus » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:17 pm

chip63 wrote:Winding up order has been adjourned again.
Bury,s lawyers think they've paid too much tax :shock .


This is one reason why the club ought to be put out of its misery, as despite not paying the staff their wages they were paying the tax element automatically to HMRC, therefore paying too much tax. How is that for logic?? In short they are saying to the judge, ‘Please give us more time as we are basically stupid?’. What about the wages they didn’t pay to people who needed the money?? What about the nearly £1 million missing from the loans taken out? Are their accountants and lawyers that incompetent that they didn’t see this happening?

Clowns, incompetents, leaderless buffoons. Day and Dale had the league, FA and countless fans at their beck and call and played them like a fiddle. If Bury FC were a lame animal it would have been dragged into a field and shot by now.
I am Spartacus
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:56 am

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:50 am

The DCMS Parliamentary Select Committee has concluded that the EFL should be made to pay reparations to Bury for a loss of earnings following the club's expulsion from League One. It also recommended staff and fans receive an apology from the EFL for its failings.

Why should the EFL pay reparations to a well known asset stripper like Steve Dale who is responsible for the club being thrown of the league? The club and the fans will not see a penny of it. Any reparations should be paid to the Bury phoenix club to help get them up and running.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50302522
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:10 pm

Who can agree with anything an MP says lately? They will changer their mind three times in the next week.

Perhaps it should be a condition of promotion that a club's spending is within 5% of the rules, it shouldn't be hard to calculate it before the last match of the season. If it was also a rule that a club exceeding limits by more than 15% was automatically relegated, I feel this situation would not occur very often.
Who are you calling pedantic? I resemble that remark!
Sandy Pate Best Stag
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Big yella » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:15 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Who can agree with anything an MP says lately? They will changer their mind three times in the next week.

Perhaps it should be a condition of promotion that a club's spending is within 5% of the rules, it shouldn't be hard to calculate it before the last match of the season. If it was also a rule that a club exceeding limits by more than 15% was automatically relegated, I feel this situation would not occur very often.

Or perhaps footballs authorities should show some genital fortitude and start dishing out proper punishment for rule breakers like rugby just has to its own and Europes reigning champions.

35 point deduction and £5million fine for breaching the salary cap.
Flip, flop & fly, Mansfield till I die.
User avatar
Big yella
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:03 am
Location: Forest Town

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:03 pm

Bolton have settled up with their former players. The football creditors rule strikes again.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... nightmare/
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:50 am

A winding-up petition issued against Bury FC has been dismissed at the High Court. The relevant tax debt has been paid according to HMRC's lawyer.

Meanwhile a phoenix club called Bury AFC has applied to join the North West Counties League

"The North West Counties Football League on Tuesday received an application from a newly formed club, Bury AFC, for membership of the League for Season 2020/21. The application has been received as per the regulations of The National League System. The League will be working with the club, The FA and other interested parties in progressing the application. At this stage, we are reviewing the application and supporting documents.

The League's Board of Directors will meet to discuss the application and whether, as this is an application from a newly formed club, to support the application ahead of the FA deadline of 1st February 2020.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2019-1 ... dismissed/

https://www.nwcfl.com/news-articles.php?id=7980
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:03 pm

A 35 year old entrepreneur is also looking to buy Gigg Lane and set up Bury AFC. Not sure if it is the same bloke who has made the application to the North West Counties league. He has the support of Forever Bury. There is also a phoenix group of fans planning to set up another Bury AFC away from Gigg Lane, Very confusing.

https://www.burytimes.co.uk/sport/18098 ... e/?ref=nuo
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby bellwhiff » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:04 pm

Wish them well
Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier...

Samuel Johnson
User avatar
bellwhiff
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 13949
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:51 pm

It looks like the Bury Phoenix club has applied to join the North West Counties League with a team called Bury AFC although the bloke who is trying to buy Gigg Lane has set up a company called Bury AFC Limited which Forever Bury have a 10% share in.
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Bury FC Courtcase

Postby Spiritater » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:52 pm

wish them well. it's a long road back from down there as Darlo, Hereford, Scarboro etc have found. i make it 5 promotions to get back to FL. the higher you go the harder it gets.
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die
Into the valley of Death
Rode the Six Hundred
Spiritater
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 20556
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Somewhere fluffy.

Previous

Return to Stagsnet Main Discussion Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 13b, BoughtonStag71, Jamie, lifestags, old stag, percystag, Richard Cranium, Sedgwick, Stagsfan11, w12stag, wink68, yellowstagsfan and 43 guests