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Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

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Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Random Hero » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:52 am

Ok, I'll say it. I'm absolutely sick to death of Nottinghamshire Police thinking they can get away with whatever the hell they want on a matchday, with no consideration for the safety of supporters. I'm talking mainly about the closing of the gate between the North Stand and the West Stand, which is a public right of way.

The absolute carnage the decision to close this gate is causing on the ring road at the bottom of Quarry Lane and across to Burger King is downright dangerous. Supporters are being forced onto the road by the sheer volume of them on a narrow pavement - indeed I saw one elderly man clipped by a car at the lights there (fortunately not injured) on Wednesday night after the Derby game. This is just one incident, but I saw many last season.

This is coupled with the fact that away supporters who have parked anywhere south of the ground are now walking straight into home fans, making congestion even worse and increasing the chances of skirmishes, occasionally with violent consequences.

It also gives home supporters with accessibility and mobility problems a real issue in getting to the railway station, adding at least 20 minutes onto their journey.

After taking some time to do a bit of research, it would appear that closing this gate in this manner is unlawful. Here's the full legislation.

Temporary Traffic Regulation Orders are made under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, as amended in the case of pedestrian public rights of way, and applications must be made at least eight weeks prior to the desired closure date of the public right of way to allow sufficient time for the Authority to comply with the various legal requirements involved. A consultation process is undertaken with the police, emergency and other services. Initial public notification takes the form of an advertisement placed in the local press before the legal division makes the Temporary Regulation Order. A TTRO can have a maximum duration of 18 months for a road and 6 months for a public right of way.

Now I for one can't remember any sort of public notification of consultation on any of these 'Temporary Traffic Regulation Orders'. I'd take that to mean they haven't happened.

The police can't use the argument that they are closing the gate on the day for 'protecting the safety of the public', as quite often the information is communicated weeks in advance.

Although this problem would be completely alleviated by giving us the North Stand back (but that would mean common sense prevailing, which is doubtful lets be honest), the situation at the moment is disgusting. It is only a matter of time before someone is killed or seriously injured on the road at the bottom of Quarry Lane.

I intend to pass on this information to the club and to Nottinghamshire Police, asking for clarity on the situation. I don't think we should be letting this lie - it seems to be getting towards a stage that they will be closing the gate for every game. We can't allow this to happen.

Any thoughts or support on how to take this forward would be great. Thank you.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby bellwhiff » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:58 am

Go get them. FOI request to Notts Constabulary to request the documentation that is sent to request closing a Right of Way.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Random Hero » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:00 pm

bellwhiff wrote:Go get them. FOI request to Notts Constabulary to request the documentation that is sent to request closing a Right of Way.


Good shout, and a good place to start. I'll get onto it.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Captain Cunno » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:10 pm

Make sure you send a strongly worded email Random..
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Random Hero » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:14 pm

Captain Cunno wrote:Make sure you send a strongly worded email Random..


You know me mate. I'll CC Alan Meale in too.

On a serious note though, we shouldn't be continually patronised by the police who believe they can do whatever they like because we are 'football supporters'.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby cassellswasmagic » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:37 pm

Keep us posted on your efforts Random!!!
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby one f in mansfield » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:52 pm

Strongly suspect that if permission is needed to close the gate then the application would be for a closure for every home game .
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Chander Lear » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:06 pm

Someone could always take some tools, balaclava and take the gate / fence down all together - That'l screw em lol
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby part time pete » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:06 pm

I emailed Notts County Council when this first started to happen asking to see the paperwork for these closures, but never had a reply or acknowledgment.

Closing the gate is unlawful without due procedure. Unless we have become a police state.

Where’s Wolfie when you need him.?

Perhaps a word with our MP who is still a county councillor. You know the one who tries to get into the papers as often as possible. Might get some action as he will be up against Paddy Tipping (lab) and head of police.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Mr Grimsdale » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:13 pm

Random Hero wrote:
Captain Cunno wrote:Make sure you send a strongly worded email Random..


You know me mate. I'll CC Alan Meale in too.

On a serious note though, we shouldn't be continually patronised by the police who believe they can do whatever they like because we are 'football supporters'.



I think you'll need to email the Boris Johnson supporting and Mansfield MP Ben Bradley in, and not the other guy SIR Alan Meale :lol:

Whilst I get the indignation and angst this causes, and the potential for accidents, congestion or whatever, and like you I have seen near misses, people stood in the road etc, I think we should pay a word of thanks to the dolts and juvenile brains that like to go round and perform their 'Pavement Dancing' whenever there is the chance of a ruck at the back of the North Stand.

The ONLY solution to all this is to return the North Stand End to the home supporters, end of, otherwise the gate has to close, because quite simply, some folk can't behave.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:32 pm

I presume from this we are dealing with the old public footpath which used to be called Cinderella Walk and ran up the back of the old north stand. I think this went onto Bradder street or thereabouts and didn't bend to the back of the old west stand.

Notts county council employ a public rights of way officer who should respond to any enquiries and would be responsible for enforcing any unlawful closures.

It is entirely possible this footpath was diverted or even revoked with the development of the retail park or Bradder Street industrial area so the first job would be to ensure the right of way still exists. Again Nottinghamshire County Council should be able to supply this information, if necessary under a freedom of information request if they don't reply in the first instance.

A little research may save faces becoming yolk coloured. I would be surprised if the gate is across a public right of way as the area it leads to is entirely enclosed by fencing with no way out should the gates be locked. If the right of way still exists I think it probably carries on up to Bradder Street.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:34 pm

Re the above please read Sibthorpe Street instead of Bradder Street. I blame my memory lack on old age and poverty. Sorry
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Jimstag » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:40 pm

Good luck with that Random, I’ve got a feeling you’ll need it!

I’ve seen a number of incidents on the corner of quarry lane, it just moves the problem on rather than solving it. Although one question for me would be around club responsibility, e.g. if there’s an incident on our property does the liability/problems come back to the club whilst it being someone else’s issue if it happens on the street or retail park? Shutting the gate might be better for the club in an odd way?
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Chander Lear » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:43 pm

It wont be a club issue.....
Somoene was playing football the other day, ball went over the fence, hit the windscreen, smashed it. Owner had to pay.

Slightly different scenario, but its an example of how responsibility is moved.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Captain Cunno » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:50 pm

100% there is the old cars are parked at the owners risk sign somewhere in car park. :lol:
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Jamie » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:55 pm

Personally I'm happy for them to close the gate, but then it doesn't really inconvenience me.

It's clearly done in the interest of public safely. I get the issue on the main road but some of the other points seem to be just moaning about inconvenience which wont hold any weight when it comes to safety.

If your going to fight this, stick to the valid points. Ie, unlawful to close it workout prior notices and consultation etc and then safety issue it causes on Notts Rd.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Chander Lear » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:58 pm

Captain Cunno wrote:100% there is the old cars are parked at the owners risk sign somewhere in car park. :lol:


yes there is... so, people pay for parking during a game, when the league on the 5 a side pitch is on is on... whos responsibility is it then? The club have an obligation as its safe and secured parking...

slight tangent, but you get the point
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Beano » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:22 pm

I go to Darley Moor circuit a lot and there is a public footpath that crosses the middle of the track.

This is obviously locked on race days, however to do so the circuit owners apply in advance and post an official council notice on each locked gate showing the application and closure dates.

I'm assuming that the same legislation applies here, so am surprised no such notices are positioned on these gates.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby STAGS FOR LIFE » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:32 pm

;) If you cannot find anything out i suggest a trip down to Mansfield Museum , they will know everything to know about right of ways and if they have been changed.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Rob » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:32 pm

Beano wrote:I go to Darley Moor circuit a lot and there is a public footpath that crosses the middle of the track.

This is obviously locked on race days, however to do so the circuit owners apply in advance and post an official council notice on each locked gate showing the application and closure dates.

I'm assuming that the same legislation applies here, so am surprised no such notices are positioned on these gates.


I would guess the difference here is that it is not the club closing the gate. It's the Police closing the gates on safety grounds, so I imagine that's not required. The police can, and do hundreds of times a day, close roads, paths, parks etc, etc without having to apply for a licence, I suspect they have the power to close a gate for 20 minutes and can close any public footpath in the interests of public safety.

It's the morons who can't behave to blame, I've seen them when the gate is left open - idiots.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Beano » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:37 pm

We think the same things at the same time
We just can't do anything about it
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Sneag » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:11 pm

Random, I email Paddy Tipping last September about the OTT policing at our games.

I finally got a reply 6 weeks later, which I posted on the Gabbitas Gate thread, but here it is again. I thought his reply was mostly crap, so I wrote back with a rebuttal of each of his points. Funnily enough he never replied to that one!

[color=#000080]Dear Stuart,

It was good of you to write to me about the policing of Mansfield Town games. Sorry it has taken a little while to respond, but I wanted to ask Nottinghamshire Police for more information before I replied.

I’m sure you will appreciate that every club is different and that the risk presented by each fixture has to be individually assessed, depending on the ground where the match is being played, travel arrangements of supporters, risk numbers and behaviours, overall numbers, the history between clubs and their position in the league, to name but a few factors.

Each season, on release of the fixtures, the club and police work together to provisionally assess the risk of each game and there is a window of opportunity for the club to request amendments to the football league. In relation to Mansfield Town, this occurred this year and a number of high-risk games were identified. An earlier kick-off creates a safer environment for all and represents better value for money than increasing the expense to the club of significantly more stewards and police at the game. Identifying and announcing amendments to the fixtures early is felt to be preferable, as it allows people to make plans; rather than making changes much closer to the fixture, which is more likely to adversely affect fans.

Due to the current make-up of teams in the league there are a number of fixtures this season that have been assessed as requiring policing.

Nottinghamshire Police and local football clubs enjoy a good, professional relationship and work together in order to maximise safety. The availability of alcohol and the length of time it is available to be consumed is strongly linked to the adverse behaviour of some individuals. Therefore, earlier kick-offs which limit the time alcohol can be consumed greatly assist in reducing risk.


I have been advised that keeping fans back at the end of the game was a tactic used some considerable years ago – this is now regarded as being disproportionate in the majority of cases and whilst it is still available as a tactic, there are other less restrictive ways of managing risk.

The decision to accommodate away fans in the North Stand was made by the club a number of years ago. Many away fans travel by train, so if they were in the South Stand, fans would still cross paths. Similarly, some Mansfield fans park to the south of the ground and so again, mixing and cross-over would still occur.

The decision to, on occasion, close the gate at the junction of the North Stand and the Ian Greaves Stand is made for safety reasons and provides a physical barrier to keep the risk of harm to all minimised. I have been assured that the opportunity to re-open the gate is taken as soon as it is felt safe to do so and whilst a small wait is required, this is an alternative to the detour described. Every effort is made by the police and the club to communicate in advance that the gate will be shut at specific fixtures.

You will be pleased to know that there is a fans’ representative on the SAG, allowing the fans’ voice to be heard. I hope this goes some way towards reassuring you that Nottinghamshire Police and the club work closely to ensure that all fans are able to arrive, enjoy the game and go home again as safely and swiftly as possible.

Yours sincerely,


Paddy Tipping Police and Crime Commissioner
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:23 pm

Beano wrote:Para 2 is your friend Random

https://www.blackburn.gov.uk/Pages/Clos ... f-way.aspx



That is very informative and sets out the procedure to alter or close a public right of way on a permanent or temporary basis.

I think the main point is if the right of way exists in the first place. I honestly don't think the gate is across an official public right of way so those rules wouldn't apply.

Notts cc will tell you the route of the right of way
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Chander Lear » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:23 pm

LOL

Nottinghamshire Police and local football clubs enjoy a good, professional relationship and work together in order to maximise safety. The availability of alcohol and the length of time it is available to be consumed is strongly linked to the adverse behaviour of some individuals. Therefore, earlier kick-offs which limit the time alcohol can be consumed greatly assist in reducing risk.


so for a 3pm KO we go out at 11.... for a 1pm we go out at 9am.... The same amount of time, so that argument is literally flawed.
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Re: Closing the gate and the law - We need to stand up!

Postby Amber Andy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:24 pm

The solution is.

1 Give us the North Stand back.

2 Keep the away fans in the ground for 30 mins after the match finishes ( as we were at the Prozac )

3 Keep kick off times to 3pm ( 7:45 for mid week games ).
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